DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 I => Topic started by: IluvBarnabas on April 16, 2008, 11:53:00 PM
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Here's my two cents:
For characters: Hallie Stokes (and Carrie too). Maybe it's just me, but I thought she was a sweet girl, very likable.
Stories: 1841 Parallel Time. Almost everyone I know personally on a day-to-day basis hates this story, but I personally adored it.
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I enjoyed PT1841 very much. Actually, I ended up eventually liking it. What probably first turned me off was no Barnabas (I think it would've made a difference if the character of Bramwell was still the character of Bramwell right down to the Johnny Bravo hairdo, but instead was named Barnabas"Jr."), but once I got past that after a few watchings in reruns, I really developed a strong liking for it. I thought it returned to DS's gothic roots and had strong and intense characters. It was also nice to see Josette back, albeit in a more elderly form.
Other storylines I didn't mind so much (not as much as others) are the Leviathans and PT1970. The only thing I didn't like so much about the latter was the long absence of so many characters (their alter-egos were busy doing something at Tarrytown during that time). William and Carolyn Loomis were simply brilliant, the best, IMO, among the entire cast. I savor every scene they were in.
Gerard
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Well, my hair is getting rather long, although i wouldn't exactly call it "Johnny Bravo." "Johnny Jackson," maybe.
I'm deep into 1841PT now, for the first time since the SciFi days, and am enjoying it so much more than I thought I would! I've been fascinated by Melanie, and have been impressed, as usual, by Nancy Barrett.
I REALLY enjoyed the Cyrus Longworth story in 1970PT. As much as I loathed Jeb in Leviathan, Chris Pennock blew me away with his dual performances, despite the makeup snafus. I found it a little stifling to have to deal with so much Sabrina Stuart, but being treated to Buffie Harrington was sweet icing on an otherwise delicious cake.
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I really like 1841 Parallel time also. I seemed to be the next step in the story after Barnabas realized he loved Angelique to pair up Lara and Jonathan in a love story. John Karlen and Nancy Barrett were good together and I was a bit tired of the Faye's by this time so Melanie was a nice change.
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I think Leviathins begins well.
It's creepy & mysterious.
Troulbe is, it just goes nowhere.
So I like the first half of it.
Ditto, Summer 1970 is creepy & mysterious, especially after the terrifying thrill ride that is 1995.
I just wish there had been more pay-off in 1840.
David
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Stories: 1841 Parallel Time. Almost everyone I know personally on a day-to-day basis hates this story, but I personally adored it.
I'm reappraising everything these days, since I seem to be having an overall shift of perspective that has something to do with age.
Last time, for the first time 1841PT seemed solid and good, though not the kind of storyline I would have chosen. My impressions were that they were gearing up for DS to become a different type of program, and 1841PT was the start of this. I can't characterize what type that would be (yet). Same exact sets, same actors, same music-- yet the feel of everything was subtly different. It didn't seem like the stale dregs of DS anymore, but a fresh start for something else.
The music seemed wrong. It was what they had to work with, though, so moments that weren't supposed to be creepy had the cello and bass viol music going. I love that music, but if they'd gone on, I wonder if it would have changed.
This new DS is probably not the kind of program I'd have sought out to watch. I won't say I like it a great deal, but I can tell that it's good, and that they knew what they were doing. It's just not my kind of thing, so far.
I saw the Olivier Wuthering Heights a few months ago, and now I see where certain elements were taken from, and why they don't make sense in 1841PT. Still, differences between the two meant that 1841PT wasn't ruined by seeing WH, and actually it helped. I got the feeling that this was probably not the best film ever made from that novel.
Ditto, Summer 1970 is creepy & mysterious, especially after the terrifying thrill ride that is 1995.
I just wish there had been more pay-off in 1840.
David--- Unfortunately, I think the payoff was 1995 itself, where we see the full extent of the damage. If we'd seen all those events unfold in 1840 that led to 1995, then those bad events would not have been averted, and the happy ending they were engineering for DS in general wouldn't have happened. In that case, we'd be hearing even more complaints about DS not having a satisfying conclusion. I know what you mean, though.
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I wish we could have had a protracted visit to 1692, or whenever it was that Judah Zachery was beheaded. It would make such a neat progression - seeing a disaster in 1995, and hoping to avert it in 1970, unable to avert it in 1970, so going back to 1840, another failure in 1840, so back to 1692. And then, assuming success in 1692, going back to 1840 to check up, and on back to 1970, and then slamming on the brakes so as not to end up in 1995.
Of course that's sort of off-topic. On-topic: I like Elizabeth's obsession with death in 1968. It may be a silly storyline, but it gives Joan Bennett some memorable moments.
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Well, I love the Leviathans story. I just thought it was an attempt to take the show in a different direction and although it eventually wound up as a trainwreck (mainly due to the curtailing of the original storyline because of all the complaints from fans they received about it), the first six weeks or so are brilliant. I even enjoy the messy conclusion because of all the wonderful scenes with Nicholas Blair, a top favorite character.
I'm also very fond of PT 1970. I'm going to be getting the DVDs for the first two months of that soon, and I'm looking forward to revisitng it. Again, they did something different. My main problem with it as it went on is that I simply did not find Quentin or Maggie very likeable as characters. My great pleasures with it are Grayson's Hoffman characterization, Thayer's Tim Stokes portrayal (perhaps his most brilliantly understated work in the entire series), and Paula Lawrence as Hannah. Lara was really good as an alternate version of Angelique--more ruthless but also even more incompetent with her spellcraft than the original (and given some of the gaffes Ang in our time made, that's saying something). The Cyrus/Yaeger story never did much for me but perhaps I'll enjoy it more when I revisit it later this year.
G.
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I forgot to mention that another treat in PT 1970 is Louis' bravura work as PT Roger Collins. I really can't get enough of Roger's bitchy ripostes, particularly when he's needling Maggie--although Maggie is already such a milquetoast, after awhile it becomes tantamount to watchng a bored little boy pulling the wings off a housefly.
G.
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I so agree that neither Quentin nor Maggie were sympathetic people in parallel time....especially Quentin, the way he threw a temper tantrum over every little thing Maggie did....and she LET him walk all over her too! [ghost_blink]
Sheesh, she needed to get a backbone and he definitely needed to grow up. [ghost_rolleyes]
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With Quentin there are all sorts of hints that there is something in his past that troubles him terribly and causes him to act out as he does - and then the cause is ultimately revealed. Unfortunately, there's not even one hint from her past given as to why Maggie often acted like a doormat. But then, there's really no adequate explanation in Rebecca for why she-with-no-name acts the same...
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Some people just aren't tough.
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not necessarily "unpopular" but i think one of the most underated storylines is the first laura collins story in 1966.
it's so well written and diana millay is so brilliant in it.she has confrontations with joan bennett and nancy barrett that are all-time favorite scenes for me.louis edmonds and mitch ryan are great here and alexandra moltke's vicki has a very appealing "nancy-drew-ish-ness" during this period that i really liked.this comes very close to being my favorite storyline.
i'm also with those who really liked the leviathan storyline(at least the first two thirds of it)as well as 1970 parallel-time.they both created very unique atmospheres that the show didn't have in other time periods.i also liked that they were stories set in the "present" rather than the distant past.
as for characters the relentlessly slagged victoria...whose supposed "i-don't-understand-ish-ness" is wildly overblown across fandom...remains my favorite character.alexandra brought a sweetness and melancholia to the role(plus she's so darn easy on the eyes)that i find quite dreamy.
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I think AM continued to play VW as an intelligent character, and succeeded to a large extent, even when the scripts did little or nothing to help. Something about her makes me want to know what she's thinking, even when according to the writers, it isn't very much.
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I liked the part of 1897 with Charles Tate's odd talent and Quentin's portrait. I find the part lifted directly from Dorian Grey, where the paintaining absorbs all of Quentin's sins/age/curses etc.. to be really cool, especially when we see the portrait again in 1969. My favorite minor character -- Garth Blackwood -- he was only around for a handful of episodes but I thought he was really well done and scary. The history with him and Aristede is cool ...
Since some other people mentioned alternative storylines that never made it onto the show-- I would love to have seen
(i) At least a short flashback into the history of Count Petofi. It was only given anecdotally and doing something like they did with Judah in 1692 would have been cool
(ii) An inkling, at least, of what Quentin was doing between 1897 and 1969. Surely he must have done something more than drink 72 years worth of brandy. Maybe he did some other messed up stuff that made his portrait even more grotesque ... who knows
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(ii) An inkling, at least, of what Quentin was doing between 1897 and 1969. Surely he must have done something more than drink 72 years worth of brandy. Maybe he did some other messed up stuff that made his portrait even more grotesque ... who knows
Well, when David Selby appeared just a couple years later on The Waltons, playing a university professor who becomes smitten with Olivia Walton (who takes a college course), I like to fantasize that he was Quentin in one of his many changing disguised personas.
Gerard
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I keep wondering what wars he was in.
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I'm not a huge fan of the Leviathon story (though I don't dislike it to the extent that some do); however, I genuinely like the Carolyn/Jeb relationship because I think it is the one relationship in the history of DS that brings with it some genuine sexual tension. They actually seem to be attracted to one another physically and not just romantically.
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The storyline of Elizabeth Stoddard's obsession with death (after she and Cassandra have a catfight - and Cass puts a spell on the poor woman) wasn't so bad for me, though I know most fans dislike that period. At least it gave Joan Bennett a brief chance to be back on the front-burner of the story. It also tied in the past (when she channeled Naomi Collins) with the ongoing threat of Barnabas' secret and true identity being exposed. And it gave us a rare treat of watching Dr. Julia Hoffman do the disappearing upper body trick as she bent over and stuck her head into Liz's coffin. Premature burial - grisly - but then came a happy ending, until the next crisis.
For unpopular characters, I love that creepy blonde "Alexander" brat from the 1969 Leviathan story. His thick New Yawk accent is hysterical. He is so over-the-top petulant - now here is the kid actor who should have played Damien the Anti-Christ child in "The Omen"!
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despite the makeup snafus
Speaking of which, Be In Awe Of The Nose Day is drawing near...
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My favorite minor character -- Garth Blackwood -- he was only around for a handful of episodes but I thought he was really well done and scary. The history with him and Aristede is cool ...
I enjoyed those episodes, I like Blackwood. He would've made for a great heel in pro-wrasslin'. Early WCCW I'd say.
Since some other people mentioned alternative storylines that never made it onto the show--
A noirish 1940s flashback would've been cool too -
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The Dream Curse storyline, though it seems to bug the crap out of many DS fans, is one of my favorites. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's the bad wig and incompetent spellcasting of Angelique, or Nicholas Blair's sardonic attitude towards my favorite witch - he's like the worst boss in the world!
There's so much going on in the Dream Curse storyline: Maggie regaining her memory, Adam running amok, Julia b*tchslapping Cassandra, the unintentionally hysterical "most evil woman of the 18th century" Danielle Roget, and everyone having that goofy dream. From my perspective, it's a mess, but it's also just a lot of fun.
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The Dream Curse storyline, though it seems to bug the crap out of many DS fans, is one of my favorites. I don't know what it is.
I do. You find it so bad that it's funny. People have enjoyed films and TV in that way for years. (It came out from underground with SNL's "Bad Cinema" sketches I think.) It's only in recent years, though, that a lot of people have said that they like a show because they find it laughable. This is too confusing, to me. When I have that reaction, I will say it's bad and that I dislike it, but find it so bad or improbable that I enjoy it anyway.
With DS, though, I can't laugh at the storylines I don't like, because DS has always meant something to me, and I'm pulling for it, so I have to cringe during bad stretches. It brings me down in a big way. If an entire TV series is bad, then I can relax, and laugh or mock.
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Well Magnus, I get your point, but it isn't that I find the Dream Curse to be so bad it's laughable - that's not what I take from any particular storyline of DS. Let me attempt to clarify.
Even some of my less favorite storylines on DS are still better than almost anything else I've ever seen on television. It's more that I know lots of fans find the Dream Curse unfocused, but that's the element of the story that I like. There were so many things going on, and you never knew what was going to happen next. Aside from Adam, this particular wasn't really derived from something else so it seems fresh, and sometimes like the writers weren't even quite sure where they were going to take it, so there's always an element of surprise, which is groovy.
Admittedly, there's a camp factor going on, esp. with the Nick/Angelique sideline, and that certainly has some appeal. But the storyline itself I find compelling - interesting, involving, unforgettable - it's the first DVD set of "Dark Shadows" that I bought. Don't get me wrong - the show means a lot to me too - I'm always pulling for it! [ghost_smiley]
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Characters? Quite enjoyed Hallie Stokes, would like to have the romance between her & David that was implied in 1995 acctually come to fruition. Also liked Sabrina Stuart and would have liked to have seen more scenes with her and Chris. One of all time favorites was Alexis Stokes, which gave Lara the opportunity to play a different type of character.
Did enjoy the Leviathans at the time. It would have been interesting to see where this story might have gone. Maybe a Rosemary's baby story for Carolyn?
Really enjoyed the 1970 PT story. Lots of intersting twists on familiar characters, with some of the actors doing some of their best work.
If DS did have to go off the air, I would have prefereed to spend those last few weeks with Barnabas, Julia, Elizabeth, Roger and the others. But the 1841 PT was okay. Far better and more coherent than the 1840 story it followed.
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I'd have to say Leviathans is one storyline that I liked which many don't care for. And the character of Jeb, though he is an "insufferable pig" has some appeal too - he's kind of got a raw sensuality, he's not a bad actor and I'd have to agree with Roland, who said above that Jeb and Carolyn had genuine chemistry.
Just lately, I've been watching the tail end of the show (1841 parallel time). Didn't like it at all the first time around, but I'm kind of appreciating it this time. Maybe it just took me a second viewing to get used to it being totally new characters. It was a new, interesting direction to take the show and I'm really looking forward to receiving dvd set 26, so that I can see the series finale - my tapes are from SciFi's last airing of "Dark Shadows." Y'all remember that, when they just abruptly ended with only twenty or so episodes left in the series? Grrrrrrr!
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There are alot of stories that I liked but they just went to long. I liked the dream curse, but it was just to long. I liked the experiement but it went on to long.
I liked evil Barnabas in the Laviathans, but I didn't like the fact that it all came back to Josette time and time again. It would seem that
Julia should have been able to help him with his obsession.
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I don't think the Leviathan arc was that bad. Granted, I found Jeb to be thoroughly unlikeable, and the relationship between Jeb and Megan rubbed me the wrong way, but I found everyone fawning over Jeb or one of his child forms to be rather amusing. Actually, it was a lot like the fourth season of Angel, but I'm getting off-topic here. Megan's mad thrashing about while calling for Barnabas was pretty hilarious, too. Sorry to say I'm with the majority, though, when I say that I didn't really like 1840 or either Parallel Time. Well, I liked 1840 a little, but I could have done without the Parallel Times, though admittedly I found the fact that there was a Buffy (spelled differently, granted) on Dark Shadows to be amusing, too.
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Sorry to say I'm with the majority, though, when I say that I didn't really like 1840 or either Parallel Time.
I wouldn't go so far as to say the majority of fans dislike all three of those storylines. [ghost_wink] It's certainly not the case here on the forum...
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Well, those storylines just didn't have the highest ratings, so that's what I meant.
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Well, those storylines just didn't have the highest ratings, so that's what I meant.
They had ratings higher than Barnabas' first storyline. [ghost_wink]
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Am I alone when I say that the level of ratings is not a reasonable measure of the popularity of the storyline? Sure they may be correllated, but many other things affect the ratings. The best story ever could have been the very first one, but not as many people had heard of the show yet, so it didn't get watched as much.
Also, I suspect the true dark shadows fans watched the whole series, but just had personal opinions about which stories were the best. The fluctuations in the ratings are likely due to transient fans who likely didn't follow whole storylines regularly, and thus do not fully reflect the quality of the storyline
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I totally agree with you on almost every point, Garth. The one caveat I'd add is that it's hard to argue that the large drop in ratings after 1897 didn't in some way reflect that a portion of the original audience who'd loved 1897 found something about Leviathans not to their liking. Thankfully, though, the ratings began to rebound after Leviathans. And, of course, just because something wasn't originally embraced in its own time doesn't necessarily make it bad. I mean, just look at how The Wizard of Oz was originally received, but nowadays it's considered a classic. (Though I wouldn't personally go that far with Leviathans. [ghost_wink] It has some absolutely wonderful moments in the beginning - but, whoa, what a mess it becomes at the end!! [yikes])
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...I need to start doing my own research instead of relying strictly on the official companions. :P They kind of painted it to sound like those storylines had next to no viewers. And, yes, I never thought of it that way. The die-hard fans probably did watch it all the way through to the end, while the casual fans dropped out.
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Very interesting points of views from everyone. This is a fantastic question and I'd like to add that I really liked the Leviathan storyline and had wished that Barnabas could've stayed evil. I too get the Jeb & Carolyn sexual chemistry and I always liked Jeb. I liked all of the storylines when Joan Bennet got a chance to act and not just be scenery dressing. In particular was her portrayal of the 'death obssesed Liz'. Good stuff. As for PT, it's strange but I really liked the Bruno attraction for Angelique story. Too bad he was dispatched so early on. All I can say about the Bramwell and Catherine storyline was I absolutely loved it. I really felt the chemistry between those two. I didn't care for the Morgan character in as much as he didn't ring true for me. His character could have been written differently. The first Laura storyline was the best along with her dealings with Dr. Guthrie sent shivers up my spine.