1840 storyline....love it or hate it?

[Doug]

In addition to what I said above, I guess my primary problem with the 1840 story is that the writers simply did not care to explain why anything happened.

For example, why did the ghosts of Gerard and Daphne start haunting the house in 1970?? Why not any other time? At least in 1897, Quentin's ghost was "released" by the kids discovering his room and doing various things for him. With Gerard's ghost, they just basically showed up one day and started making the playroom appear, with apparently no external cause. The only even half-reason is that Hallie had shown up, making the pair Tad & Carrie together again, but it still seems like Gerard's ghost should have had power and been able to cause trouble without the kids (especially considering how unimportant they ended up being).

I mentioned it before about the ghost of both Gerard and Quentin inside Collinwood. Both of them had to know
about each other, except Quentin was trapped in the West Wing, and how many times was Angelique killed and
always came back? How can we all know that she was gone for good after the 1840 storyline?

[Gerard]

And don't forget the widows as well as Josette's spook.  Bill Malloy's geist even popped in for a visit.  Did they all know that each of them were there?  Did they acknowledge each other?  Take notice?  Play poker once in awhile?  Have an office Christmas party?

Gerard

[arashi]

If you read about and believe in the paranormal, you'll find that in some cases where more than one ghost haunts a location, sometimes they don't seem aware of each other at all.

[MagnusTrask]

I doubt that ghosts exist entirely in the place they're haunting.   I tend to think of most of the spirit existing in some other reality.    Quentin's "place" may not overlap with Gerard's "place".

[Doug]

If you read about and believe in the paranormal, you'll find that in some cases where more than one ghost haunts a location, sometimes they don't seem aware of each other at all.

I have watched ghost stories on TV like The Discovery Channel, The History Channel and The Travel Channel and
I have books on ghost stories. I have read stories where a house is haunted by three or four different ghosts and
the stories goes one of them is the strongest and controls the other ghosts.

That is reason why I have wondered about the ghost of Quentin, Gerard and Josette in Collinwood at the same
time.

[michael c]

the reason i say i'm surprised that this storyline ranked so highly in a poll isn't just so much because i don't think it's particularly good(which i don't)but also because during my time on this board it's often maligned for it's "sloppiness" and "inconsistency".more than any other storyline besides 'leviathans' it's the subject of much criticism.

the fact that it ranked so highly alongside 1795 and 1897 and at the expense of all 'present day' storylines makes me wonder if perhaps some fans simply enjoy the time travel storylines as a rule.that the theatricality of the storylines set in the past makes them preferable to those set in the 'present' just on priciple.

i enjoy the time travel storylines but to me those characters aren't "real" in the same way the present time characters are because i know they are in effect "temporary" and that most of them will probably end up getting killed-off when the story makes it's inevitable return to the present(i guess the exception would be the 1840 storylines because the show ends with them.)

i always think of the 1967 episodes(laura,the introduction of barnabas,the introduction of julia)as being the show's high point and it surprises me that those episodes wouldn't top anyone's list of favorite stories.

[MagnusTrask]

Unfortunately I can't see the intro of Barnabas properly, because I have the edited-highlights MPI tapes, mostly, and I must be missing a lot.   I noticed that they managed to cut out every single mention of Willie draining cows!

Coherence and consistency in the "facts" of a storyline matter, but they aren't the most important thing, not to me anyway.    Preferring the time-travel storylines isn't as arbitrary as you might think.    I much prefer them because of atmosphere, visuals, most everything about them.    Everything seems to matter more.   I like the use and delivery of language in them.

There's 1967 (B&W) of course, and I've never seen 1966 and that may be great, but after that I don't think the stories in the "present" are that good.   I'm sorry that I can't think of solid reasons right now.    Anyway, I've never liked the times I've lived in and wanted escape from them somehow.

As for the past characters seeming less "real", I know what you mean, but with each passing year the past characters seem more and more real to me, and the "present" ones less and less real.     I think PT undermined the reality of characters more than anything else.    Anyway, the fact that characters could and would (some anyway) die makes their storyline more potent to me.    They now seem more real to me, specifically for that reason.   

The "present" characters are often oblivious to what's really going on, and don't take much of a direct part in the action.     This makes them "cargo" to me, and not real characters.   By that I mean that they just exist to be put in danger and saved, whether individually or as part of that "Collins family" that heaven and earth must be moved in order to save.    The Collins family is collectively a great big (and often uninteresting) damsel-in-distress.   First Vicki was reduced to that in late 1795, then the whole Collins family in 1968.

Whenever I get to see 1966, I expect to have a moment where I realize, oh THIS is why these characters were really created....

[Mysterious Benefactor]

the reason i say i'm surprised that this storyline ranked so highly in a poll isn't just so much because i don't think it's particularly good(which i don't)but also because during my time on this board it's often maligned for it's "sloppiness" and "inconsistency".more than any other storyline besides 'leviathans' it's the subject of much criticism.

If I was going by some of the opinions on this forum, I might wonder how 1840 made it to the top too.    However, this is just one forum with one set of often times very vocal members. And make no mistake - we love an opinionated group - mostly because it makes discussion so much more interesting. But as someone who's been on the Internet for close to 15 years and taken part in several online boards over that time, I can say that 1840 is not nearly as disliked/criticized in general fandom (and that also includes offline fandom, of which I've been a part for 20 years, and through which I've had the pleasure of reading many a fanzine) as it would appear to be here. The what might even be termed a mostly love-fest for 1840 started soon after the MPI VHS tapes began being released in '93, it continued through its first Sci-Fi showing in '95 (when I was very active on other boards), and it continues with many of us to this day. 

Another point I'd like to make is that in general the Internet tends to be a place where far more people criticize than praise. It's just human nature to expend more energy giving voice to what irks you about the world than what suits you just fine, much less to extend actual praise. That's the prime reason that whenever a new fan mentions that they have never seen a particular DS storyline and don't know if they even want to based on what they might have read of other fans' online opinions, I always try to make a point to advise that they should definitely watch it for themselves and make up their own minds. More often the not, the new fans tend to be pleasantly surprised - and that even extends to being pleasantly surprised about Leviathans, which has a lot more going for it than one might suspect if the only reference one has to it are the online postings to DS boards. 

Quite honestly, one time a few years back when Midnite and I were batting around different ideas for the forum, which also happened to coincide with a rather dark period here when all everyone seemed to be doing was posting about everything they disliked about DS, I suggested that maybe we should announce a one month moratorium on criticizing the show and only post during that one month about what we all love about DS. But we quickly dropped that idea because, based on the mood of the posters at the time, we seriously wondered if barely anyone at all might have posted during the moratorium.       Thankfully, though, more often than not opinions tend to be fairly balanced around here.    And it's nice to see some of the members who enjoy 1840 coming forward.

the fact that it ranked so highly alongside 1795 and 1897 and at the expense of all 'present day' storylines makes me wonder if perhaps some fans simply enjoy the time travel storylines as a rule.that the theatricality of the storylines set in the past makes them preferable to those set in the 'present' just on priciple.

I don't know if it's on principle, but I've definitely noticed that the period storylines, for whatever reason, do tend to top a lot of fans' lists as their favorites. In that respect, the results of the Brandies voting didn't surprise me at all. And interestingly...

i always think of the 1967 episodes(laura,the introduction of barnabas,the introduction of julia)as being the show's high point and it surprises me that those episodes wouldn't top anyone's list of favorite stories.

...it wasn't just the period storylines that ranked higher than most of the present day storylines because, while the introduction of Barnabas came in 4th in the first round of voting, 1970PT came in 5th - ahead of all the other RT present day storylines...

[MagnusTrask]

Boards have their own personalities.    Two different boards will have different overall opinions.    Also there seem to be trends or fashions in fandoms.    For a few years someone or some storyline will be a whipping boy for awhile, then things will shift over a few years so that he/it is very much in favor, and vice-versa.    Some opinions probably become prevalent because of sheer repetition.   

[Philippe Cordier]

Magnus Trask, MB, and Midnite - among others - have provided good (and convincing) explanations for many of the criticisms of the 1840 storyline.  Too me, 1840 was the most complex and therefore one of the most compelling and challenging storylines.

Complaints about loose ends, inconsistencies, or lack of explanation are par for the course for the entire series, so I don't see why some commentators single them out for the 1840 storyline. Perhaps there are more unexplained events in 1840, but if so, these just intrigued me further.  In fact, I've said in the past that I think the DS writers consciously left loose ends and ambiguities, which I think is one of the distinctive aspects of DS as a whole that give it texture and interest (not to mention longevity).  I'm not one who needs everything spelled out or wrapped up in a neat package.

A few years back I ranked all of the storylines, and although that's a somewhat artificial exercise, I chose 1840 as my favorite, followed by 1775 and 1897.  Despite this, the introduction of Barnabas is also a favorite, as is ... well, I could go on and on.  If I remember correctly, 1971 PT was my least favorite, but there are aspects I'm passionate about in every storyline and things I find to dislike in each of them too.

Here's a list of some of my favorite things that come to mind about 1840.  I won't be able to elaborate on them now.  However, a few days ago, before I saw this post, I came across a printout of a commentary I made on the 1840 storyline a few years ago, which includes some aspects not mentioned above.  I hope to retype and post that soon.

Like others, I loved the stairway through time.  I hope to make a post soon about parallel universes and our lives that may exist in them according to the theories of a reputable physicist at Stanford.

A few things I liked about 1840:

Ben
Gabriel
Desmond
Flora (elsewhere I've argued that she must have been born Flora Magruder)
Gerard
Tad & Carrie
Rose Cottage
Flora Collin's house
The complexity of the puzzle beginning with the Summer of 1970

- Vlad

[MagnusTrask]

Perhaps there are more unexplained events in 1840, but if so, these just intrigued me further.  In fact, I've said in the past that I think the DS writers consciously left loose ends and ambiguities, which I think is one of the distinctive aspects of DS as a whole that give it texture and interest (not to mention longevity).  I'm not one who needs everything spelled out or wrapped up in a neat package.

(1897 spoiler below)


I've been coming to think this way in the past few years, partly because of posts on this board, I think.   It's hard at first not to see the show's point of view as being what protagonists say onscreen-- but when you remember that real life situations aren't spelled out verbally by real people experiencing them (who are often all clueless as to the meaning of what's happening), this helps one to see DS differently.   I think it was something someone said about Quentin's reaction to seeing Carl's body in front of Barnabas, that got me thinking this way-- the idea that Quentin wasn't free to speak honestly about it in front of the relative he now had an extra reason to fear.... and he can't discuss it with other people either.   

If Q was going to voice his real attitude for the sake of the viewers (and exposition), he'd have to have talked to himself when no one else was around, which would have been silly.    So we have to put the pieces together ourselves, and that's good training for watching DS and for life in general.

I don't mind loose ends or ambiguity so much, but outright contradiction of established facts I do mind, as with Edith at the end of 1840.    Still, I've whittled down those to three or four items, and that's not so much more than in other eras.

I'm fuzzy on the whole Java Queen business.   Was there any connection between this ship and the one Q and Gerard were on?     If this was just some ship Ivan Miller was on many years before sailing with Quentin1, why did it crash right at the Collins estate?    When was that crash?   Did Quentin have any connection to that ship at all?

I'm thinking it was extreme foresight on Ivan's part, storing away some proto-zombies for the right moment he foresaw many years later, when he could try to take over the estate.     

I'd appreciate someone pitching in to help explain this.... I know we can just throw up our hands and say it's 1840 so it won't make sense, period.... but I've already satisfied myself on some points I thought would never make sense.    I'd like to see how far we can get.

[MagnusTrask]

Is it possible that the Java Queen just crashed at a random spot which happened to be the Collins estate, resulting in the deaths of the crew except for Ivan/Gerard, who met Quentin #1 for the first time during this incident?