DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '07 II => Topic started by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 17, 2007, 09:53:37 PM

Title: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 17, 2007, 09:53:37 PM
I was just checking out the current slideshow and talk about contrasts!!  [santa_shocked]

The Best Of Times, as exemplified by December 16, 1968's introduction:

(http://www.dsboards.com/eventimages/1216ds_4.jpg)
1968: Ep #646 - The spirits of Beth and Quentin appear to the children.
[santa_thumb]  [hello]

But then only a year later, December 16, 1969 is the Worst Of Times when:

(http://www.dsboards.com/eventimages/1216ds_8.jpg)
1969: Ep #906 - Carolyn meets Philip's 'nephew' Alex.
(http://www.dsboards.com/SMF/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif)  [yikes]

Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: MagnusTrask on December 17, 2007, 10:17:06 PM
I was just thinking yesterday about how much happens in 1969... all the present-day stuff leading up to 1897, all of 1897, which went on a long time, fortunately, so long that they had to create new enemies and new threats to extend it... 1795/6/7 again, then a slow build-up to the emergence of Jeb, which apparently didn't happen yet in Dec. 1969 but was about to.   This what I think about when P Stoddard looks at his 1969 calender.

Megan Todd is some compensation for that storyline.    The first time, I was interested until it suddenly hit me that there's no way on Earth that they could possibly show the monster that they'd been teasing us with all that time.     If then they'd actually surprised us with a very well-designed and made monster at the end, even if was just for a few moments, this might be remembered as a good storyline.    I'm not one of those who say that suspense is enough, and that often it's better not to show anything, or that mystery is enough, and that many mysteries in stories should be left unresolved.   Good suspense is a goal in itself, but I require a payoff or I feel manipulated and cheated.   Lack of a payoff leads me to not trust other makers of shows and films, and this hobbles my ability to feel such suspense.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: loril54 on December 17, 2007, 10:31:30 PM
The obelisk was bad enough. I don't know how they could have made a paper machet monster.

Look what Hitchcock did with suspense.

Dec 16th I believe is Beethoven's Birthday.  Some people could say that was good and bad.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: MagnusTrask on December 17, 2007, 11:03:37 PM
The obelisk was bad enough. I don't know how they could have made a paper machet monster.

Look what Hitchcock did with suspense.

Dec 16th I believe is Beethoven's Birthday.  Some people could say that was good and bad.

I really like the obelisk.   I think that was an interesting design.

Creative, dedicated people can do a lot with little money, sometimes.   That storyline was a lot cheaper than 1897 since the clothing and sets were contemporary... so they could have sprung for one effect.    Hell, I could figure out how to do it.     At least an occasional glimpse of a tentacle or something in the shadows might have been enough.

Hitchcock was great with suspense, obviously.   He knew you couldn't cheat the audience and fail to deliver a payoff at the end, and filmgoers knew that and trusted him, and so the suspense was credible.    Leviathans just ran out of steam and fell apart, and we never saw the main threat.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: michael c on December 18, 2007, 12:14:25 AM
i think i must be one of the rare viewers who really enjoyed at least the first two thirds of the leviathan storyline.yeah the kids were annoying and the whole thing does fall apart towards the end(in my opinion 1968 falls apart,1897 goes on much too long and by late 1970 the whole thing runs out of steam)but the first several weeks had an atmosphere quite unlike anything else on the series.

i also really liked 1970 parallel time too.go figure. [a_xmas]
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Patti Feinberg on December 18, 2007, 02:05:02 AM
also really liked 1970 parallel time too.go figure

(psst...don't tell, but so do I!!)

Leviathans just ran out of steam and fell apart, and we never saw the main threat.

Well said, I agree.

Good topic MB!!

Patti

PS...where's the slideshow?
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Bob_the_Bartender on December 18, 2007, 04:19:08 PM
In the "Words I Learned From Watching Dark Shadows Department," I enjoyed it whenever Jonathan Frid would wax dramatically about the cairn located on the path between Collinwood and the Old House.

According to Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: Cairn - A heap of stones piled up as a memorial or as a landmark.

By the way, don't get me started on elan vital, Cerberus or "gadjo" (sp?)!
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: arashi on December 18, 2007, 06:52:16 PM
That's funny because I was thinking almost the same thing yesterday while looking at the slideshow! The amount of story that get's told and the progression of the show in just one year is incredible.

Later viewings (and the understanding that NOTHING pre-1897 gets resolved after it) have really endeared the Leviathans storyline to me. It's like nothing else they did on DS and that makes it all the more fun to watch.

A problem DS had with most *coughallcough* of it's storylines is it's frantic pace. New storylines are introduced before the old ones are concluded and most of the time we never get a satisfactory ending.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Gothick on December 18, 2007, 07:57:39 PM
I agree of course about both the Leviathans and Parallel Time 1970.  Both heralded a very different shift in tone and atmosphere and for at least awhile the shows they gave us explored new horizons for the series.  I can actually recall being intrigued by the whole set up of the Leviathans, Barnabas' icy demeanor towards Julia and fake solicitude towards others, etc., back in '69-'70.  It's such a wonderful story for the Yule season and the theme of encroaching darkness--and of course, the birth of a mystical child.

It would be interesting to see the original outline for the story, which I think was supposed to last five or six months, before DC panicked because of the dropping ratings and hate mail and made them do the "everything including the kitchen sink" routine with the plot.  (Although, I still love the episode where we go from Bruno orgasmically flogging the werewolf to Barnabas "conferring" with Megan.   Also love, love, love the scene where Julia finds out that Barnabas has "talked" to Megan and her reaction--this stuff is better than heroin!  Why, it's better than two sticks of Land-o'Lakes, lashed together in a rough-hewn manner!)

But I digress...  (btw, PT 1970 may have given us the finest performances for two of my top favorites--Grayson Hall and Thayer David--both had such wonderfully understated, nuanced characterizations in those shows.)

G.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 18, 2007, 08:47:03 PM
I'd just like to say that when I started this topic, it was by no means meant as a comment regarding the lead-up to 1897 vs. Leviathans. I was simply contrasting the introduction of two wonderful characters on December 16th one year with the introduction of a, well, not so wonderful character on the same date in another year. The storylines they appeared in were immaterial.  [santa_smiley]

However, that being said, I love 1897 and I don't believe it went on too long. In fact, I wish it had gone on longer. Anything to have kept the wonderful dialogue and especially to have kept Thayer David's incredible performance as Petofi and Petofi's interaction with those characters around longer!

I also really enjoy the first half of Leviathans. As others have said, it was very different from what DS had done before it and in many ways it was extremely atmospheric and mysterious. It's understandable but at the same time unfortunate that TPTB caved to fan pressure and basically threw out everything that made it so interesting in favor of mind bogglingly swift about-faces and plot twists that are truly impossible to swallow no matter how much one might force themselves to try to suspend disbelief.  [santa_sad]  Like Gothick, I would have loved to have seen Leviathans play out the way it was originally intended. Other soaps have certainly stuck to their guns in the face of fan disfavor and have ultimately been rewarded when those fans finally realized the writers actually knew what they were doing all along and had crafted a very satisfying plot. Who knows, a miracle (especially given how the DS writers disliked the plot) may have actually taken place and Leviathans may have ultimately turned out that way too? But we'll never know... (And given how the DS plots often turned on a dime based on fan reaction/dissatisfaction, I can't even begin to imagine how DS would fare in this day and age of instant Internet unrest, what with the all too quickly impatient knee jerk reaction to lambast shows with little or no knowledge of where plots are actually headed and an unwillingness to allow shows to kraft plots that might require an audience to go with the flow because they trust the writers to have a really good payoff coming down the road.   [santa_undecided])

And considering how often I've said it, it goes without saying, but I'll say it again anyway: I LOVE 1970PT!!
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Nancy on December 18, 2007, 09:33:09 PM
Why, it's better than two sticks of Land-o'Lakes, lashed together in a rough-hewn manner!)

I'll never be able to pass that brand of butter again without thinking of G.'s comment!  [8_2_73]
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: katrinavantassel on December 18, 2007, 09:42:39 PM
I believe it was the Leviathan story where I first started watching DS. Can't remember much of that storyline now till I rewatch the episodes  [santa_smiley]

I hear you about incomplete story lines. I'm finding that the writers are introducing all new characters and stories that some seem to go by the wayside. For instance, though bear with me as I'm just watching this story arc, we are introduced to Quentin then haven't seen him again, at least not by episode 650 (I think). And, where did Adam go? Vacation? He hasn't made an appearance at Collinwood for a long time now. I"m sure that gets resolved as it also involves Barnabas and his vampirism, but to just leave the viewer hanging...

Still in all, I remember the days when if you missed one show you were completely lost the next day!

We had a bunch of snow over the weekend. Did someone else here keep Mrs. Johnson busy with the shoveling? I was hoping to find her outside doing my driveway  [santa_azn]

Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: MagnusTrask on December 18, 2007, 10:22:40 PM
We had a bunch of snow over the weekend. Did someone else here keep Mrs. Johnson busy with the shoveling? I was hoping to find her outside doing my driveway

Mrs. Johnson is too busy relaxing under the shade of a nice tree for any shoveling.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 18, 2007, 10:40:56 PM
Oops - I forgot to explain that...

PS...where's the slideshow?

...the slideshow is on the forum's first/main page (the BoardIndex) - the one that lists all the categories/boards. Click on the arrow buttons to cycle forward/backward through the captures/captions.  [santa_smiley]
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Gerard on December 19, 2007, 01:13:24 AM
How was the Leviathan plot suppose to originally turn out?

Gerard
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Lydia on December 19, 2007, 10:55:03 AM
I'm finding that the writers are introducing all new characters and stories that some seem to go by the wayside. For instance, though bear with me as I'm just watching this story arc, we are introduced to Quentin then haven't seen him again, at least not by episode 650 (I think).
I like that - now that the show's on DVD so that I can jump ahead if I care to.  The Old House set, Julia, Professor Stokes, and Quentin were each briefly introduced and then not seen again for quite some time.  It gives the impression that the writers were actually planning ahead, rather than going from day to day.

How was the Leviathan plot suppose to originally turn out?
I don't know, but when I saw the episode in which Nicholas Blair plays the officiating bad guy and Barnabas plays the heroic rescuer, I thought to myself, "I'll bet that was originally planned with Barnabas officiating and Quentin rescuing."
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: MagnusTrask on December 19, 2007, 08:42:40 PM
Quote
I thought to myself, "I'll bet that was originally planned with Barnabas officiating and Quentin rescuing."

Interesting.... Barnabas just sort of lapsed in his evil, for no discernable reason, at one point.   Threats to Julia, I know, but the Leviathans' control became a little weak and puny toward the end.    Good Barnabas shoehorned back in because of DC's panic over ratings?    Though, Philip Todd lapsed in the same way. 

They opted for resolving a story about a terrifying menace to everything and everybody by having us find out they were a lame menace that peters out after awhile.     That makes the viewer feel her/his time was just wasted, I think.    First they're a credible threat, then sorry, we made a mistake.... not very tough after all.....

It's always strange to me when a series chooses to start undermining the threat from its antagonists.     Another example is when they all suddenly find out that the Book has been saying all along not to kill anybody, ever, because ghosts are their worst enemies.   Of course, later, it turns out that werewolves are.   Man, did he pick the wrong town!   Jeb I mean.   The Leviathan People seem to be the Bubble Boys of the supernatural world.... now I'm imagining Jeb giving some tough, threatening speech to Bruno, but he stops and points to a corner of the room and screams, because he just saw a leprechaun or the alien from the Flinstones, or something.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 19, 2007, 09:08:10 PM
Interesting.... Barnabas just sort of lapsed in his evil, for no discernable reason, at one point.   Threats to Julia, I know, but the Leviathans' control became a little weak and puny toward the end.    Good Barnabas shoehorned back in because of DC's panic over ratings?

Exactly. And because they'd already shot some shows out of sequences before the decision was made to drop the Evil-Barn, Barn flip flops from Evil-Barn to Good-Barn back to Evil-Barn and then back again to Good-Barn in the space of a few episodes.  [santa_rolleyes]

Quote
It's always strange to me when a series chooses to start undermining the threat from its antagonists.     Another example is when they all suddenly find out that the Book has been saying all along not to kill anybody, ever, because ghosts are their worst enemies.   Of course, later, it turns out that werewolves are.   Man, did he pick the wrong town!   Jeb I mean.   The Leviathan People seem to be the Bubble Boys of the supernatural world.... now I'm imagining Jeb giving some tough, threatening speech to Bruno, but he stops and points to a corner of the room and screams, because he just saw a leprechaun or the alien from the Flinstones, or something.

Hmmm, leprechauns might have been perfect.  (http://www.dsboards.com/leprechaun.jpg)  After all, Leviathans did wrap up in March.  [santa_wink]  If only you had been on the writing staff back then to suggest it.  [santa_grin]
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Lydia on December 20, 2007, 01:30:15 PM
It's always strange to me when a series chooses to start undermining the threat from its antagonists.     Another example is when they all suddenly find out that the Book has been saying all along not to kill anybody, ever, because ghosts are their worst enemies.   Of course, later, it turns out that werewolves are.
I liked the bit about the werewolf being the Leviathan's worst enemy.  It started me thinking about evolution and primaeval times and happy werewolves chomping on Leviathans until the Leviathans were put on the Endangered Species list.  And then I dreamed up a fanfic idea where Chris Jennings is killed and Quentin somehow realizes that a werewolf is the only effective predator of Leviathans, so he destroys his own portrait so he can go after Jeb.  Of course, then I was too lazy to write the story, but it would have made Quentin an interesting character again.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: MagnusTrask on December 20, 2007, 09:26:28 PM
Quote
I liked the bit about the werewolf being the Leviathan's worst enemy.  It started me thinking about evolution and primaeval times and happy werewolves chomping on Leviathans until the Leviathans were put on the Endangered Species list.

Me too, in the back of my head, anyway.   I like it when a backstory is inserted that gives you a lot to think about, for one thing because it's an efficient way to squeeze as much good story as possible into a small space.   A short reference to an intriguing backstory opens the story up, making the scale of it larger, without any further expense, trouble, or production time.    Of course, here, I think it was sort of accidental.    When we think about the werewolf/Leviathan backstory, we're making up for writing flaws with our own imaginations.  Then again, that could have been a better stretch of story at that point; I'm often surprised that certain bits are better than I remembered.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: Miss_Winthrop on December 21, 2007, 03:39:40 PM
i think i must be one of the rare viewers who really enjoyed at least the first two thirds of the leviathan storyline.yeah the kids were annoying and the whole thing does fall apart towards the end(in my opinion 1968 falls apart,1897 goes on much too long and by late 1970 the whole thing runs out of steam)but the first several weeks had an atmosphere quite unlike anything else on the series.

i also really liked 1970 parallel time too.go figure. [a_xmas]


You're not alone for I too really liked the Leviathan storyline.  I too liked 1970 PT although I wish there was more of Stokes and Hannah during that timeframe.
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: PennyDreadful on December 21, 2007, 04:59:26 PM
And, where did Adam go? Vacation? He hasn't made an appearance at Collinwood for a long time now. I"m sure that gets resolved as it also involves Barnabas and his vampirism, but to just leave the viewer hanging...

Prepare to be left hanging.  :(

 I too am curious to know where the Leviathan story was originally headed.  I suppose at this point the original surviving writers wouldn't remember.

 Another thing I've been fascinated with for awhile was a claim that the writers had discussed a proposed mummy storyline, but I've never .. er...unearthed anything further on that theory.

 For the record I really enjoyed both the Leviathan and 1970 Parallel Time storylines.  Not my favorite tales in the series, but I definitely enjoyed them.   When I first watched 1970 PT in syndication (channel 58 out of Marthas Vinyard), the station ran out of episodes and had to stop airing the series - in the midst of the 1970 PT mysteries.  Oh the torment!  Thank goodness for MPI!!

  Hexoxo,
  Penny
   
Title: Re: December 16th - The Best Of Times, The Worst Of Times
Post by: michael c on December 22, 2007, 06:30:20 PM
i was quite entertained by the brief return of "bad" barnabas and his return to an antagonistic relationship with julia during the early part of this stryline.

the barnabas-and-julia-fight-the-monster-of-the-week show gets on my nerves at times.
i think both barnabas and julia are more interesting characters when they are morally conflicted.

my impression is that originally the werewolf plot and the leviathan plot were not intended to overlap but trying to weave them together late in the storyline was just an example of how clumsy the writing got(not to mention the out-of-left-field inclusion of vicki and peter)towards the end when negative viewer reaction threw the whole thing out of whack.