Judith Collins-Trask: Heartless Harridan or Poor, Misunderstood Soul?

[Bob_the_Bartender]

Hey gang,

Of all of the most disagreeable members of the Collins family (and with PT1970 Quentin Collins and 1840's Gabriel Collins there have been more than just a few of them), I  find Judith Collins-Trask, the late-19th century mistress of Collinwood, the most difficult to figure out.

When we first see Judith during the start of the 1897 storyline, Judith almost seems to revel in locking horns with her younger brothers, uppity Edward and Carl "The Comedian" Collins, for control of the family fortune.  When perpetual bad-boy Quentin Collins shows up, Judith wastes no love on the youngest and, aguably, most charming Collins sibling either.

Of course, Judith is "slightly" less than thoughtful and generous towards the members of the Collinwood staff as well; Judith treats Collinwood head groundskeeper Dirk Wilkins like the proverbial peon (but, then again, Dirk does eventually even the score with his bumptious boss), and, the shameles way that Judith treats the long-suffering, but, ever-faithful Beth Chavez is way beyond the pale.

In addition, being the inveterate nasty-yenta that she is, Judith tries (unsuccessfully) to convince Collins family matriarch Grandmama Edith Collins to evict Edith's friend/fortuneteller, Magda Racosi and Magda's picaresque husband, Sandor, from the Old House.  In short, Judith Collins is an extremely parsimonious and cynical individual, who probably wouldn't give her own loving mother the time of day on Christmas morning.

And, yet, after Edith dies and leaves virtually everything in her will to Judith and in sole charge of Collinwood, what does "Miss Misanthrope of 1897" do?  She proceeds to fall in love with the shifty Rev. Gregory Trask, a true Tartuffe, and a man I like to think of as "The Eliot Spitzer of Collinsport, Maine"!  I mean, how could someone as suspicious and  judgmental as Judith fall for a pious con man like the Rev. Trask?  (And Judith marries the oily and sanctimonious creep about a week, maybe, after the "reverend" has his "beloved" wife Minera "offed." Go figure!)

So, is Judith the shrew to end all shrews or is she a poor, misunderstood and, ultimately, lonely soul, looking for love in, most decidely, the wrong place?

Bob the Bartender

[alwaysdavid]

It seemed that this story was borrowed from the plays  Another Part of the Forest and The Little Foxes  and Judith was based on Regina and was not meant to be sympathetic.   The marriage to Greggory was probably based on another movie like  Sudden Fear with Joan Crawford so then we are expected to feel sympathy towards her plight.  I can remember being satisfied with the unltimate payoff of this storyline the end of 1897.

[arashi]

Ooo Food for thought! What a great topic!

I think Judith is strictly a product of her environment. It really doesn't seem that anyone in the family was brimming with fondness for each other. Contrast the family of 1897 with the family of 1795. The Collinwood of 1897 is far colder and almost devoid of familial love. Everyone is out to get everyone else (save possibly Carl, though even he possesses an "Every man for himself" attitude at the start of the storyline.)

Having been raised by Edith and possibly Gabriel, I imagine any displays of emotion would quickly have been smothered, and eventually the kids would wilt under the lack of love and constant open hatred and contempt that marriage seemed to cling to. Edith was one twisted individual, it's not surprising Judith herself would have come out, if not twisted, at least bent.

[MagnusTrask]

I only saw early 1897 recently.  (Thanks Lydia)    The whole family was nasty.    I didn't expect it, since before this, my tapes had begun in the middle of Laura and went all the way to trhe end of 1897.    I had poor, poor Judith who had great difficulty speaking up for herself, in my head, the one I was rooting for at the end.    Judith's standing up for herself for the first time in her life!   Whoops.....

I could point to life-changing moments to try to explain the change, I guess.    Many people believe devoutly in religion without being nice people, so she helped Trask out after the fire, then out of the blue he expresses affection for her, and she respects perceived authority figures, especialy religious ones, so she believes him.   She's starved for real affection to the point where it's warped her somewhat, so she falls right into love and starts thawing out.   Maybe once the layers of emotional cynicism and crud are bypassed by something like this, childlike innocence starts appearing, which was buried until then under the crud.    Then more naivete and vulnerability.   Perhaps love (or one of the many different nameless states people mistake for love) is her kryptonite.    Red's the kind that takes away powers, right?  Or is that gold?

I wonder if Judith became her hard old self after we leave 1897.

[IluvBarnabas]

[spoiler] I recall Judith telling Barnabas at Edith's coffin, she and the others were taught not to get emotional over anything that befalls them, that they should just take it in stride.

From the look of it, Judith took that to heart, and Edward too. Quentin and Carl ignored Edith's philosophy all together. They wanted to enjoy life: Carl with his practical jokes, Quentin with his women and booze, emotional attachments or not.

Judith had been a spinster all her life....Trask was the first man to show any interest in her, and she had no experience dealing with a man's interest before. She admired Trask so, and trusted his judgment. Granted, though, marrying the man after the murder of his first wife was in poor taste.

I don't know if she became harder again, but I do think Judith was definitely wiser after she dealt with Gregory. I doubt she ever married again. [/spoiler]

[Patti Feinberg]

A big point was made; Judith was raised by her grandmother.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, since Grandmothers are from 2 generations prior, they tend to be more staid/strict etc. They've also been through alot, so they don't necessarily want to put up with alot of children's nonsense. (Also, that was definitely a time of children 'being seen & not heard'.)

Edward doesn't seem genial or frivilous or warm, but are we giving him the benefit because [spoiler]his wife left him for his brother?[/spoiler]
Edith has watched her Grandmother run the company (a least at some point when Edith & Edward were younger)....so she has seen a woman being 'tough'. Now, I don't want to get on a soapbox  , but I remember my mother (in mid-1970's) having to deal with mortgage co/electric. Everything was in her name (my parents were divorced), yet the men on the phone from aforementioned would tell my college-educated mother to 'have your husband call back so we can explain the charges to him'. 

So, Judith had to deal with everything around the home (and we don't really know how involved with the Collin's business she was) once Grandmama got older/bed ridden.

Why wouldn't/shouldn't she be a powerful woman. Hey, it's either powerful or pitiful, so Good For Judith!!!

allllll my humble 62 cents.....

Patti

[MagnusTrask]

Hey, it's either powerful or pitiful

Is it?   Are those the only ways to be?

All four siblings seemed nasty to me in early 1897.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Many people believe devoutly in religion without being nice people

Really? Shocking! ... Well, actually, not so much so...


As for Judith, I can't really add much to the excellent dissections of her character that people have already posted. But I will say that I loved her, she had some of my absolutely favorite scenes in 1897 (particularly around the time of the revelation of how she'd inherited it all), and Joan Bennett did some of her best work ever on DS in the role.

[Julia99]

Bob the B I always love your provocative questions.  Now I have a historic sympathy for unloved spinsters. .e.g. Judith Collins-Trask, Jean Brodie (although one could argue she was loved too much just not the way she wanted), Miss Haversham, the Ladies of Missalonghi,, etc etc. 

I see that Judith does most of the work with a bunch of uninspiring brothers milling around.  Her Grandmother is ailing but still willful and potentially under the spell of a couple of grifters.  Judith worries for her future. I sense that she hasn't been shown much kindness, love or indulgence in her life.  Hence when Trask says a few kind words after Judith's death, she falls for it and him. 

Beth Chavez was a servant who slept with Judith's brother and then publically lamented about it--she didn't know her place.   That is all Judith as a character could see being that she hadn't experienced much sympathy in her own life, she was unable to give it to other. No?

[Brandon Collins]

I think this is a great topic, and I had a nice, long, explorative post all typed and ready to send, but the internet ate it. So I'm going to attempt to recreate it.

Judith's behavior, as well as that of her three siblings, I think, is a result of their lack of parenting. As someone mentioned previously, they were raised by Edith, who was two generations their senior, and who probably had some very different values and operated under the "children are seen and not heard" ideal. Edith and Gabriel, if we can assume they are the same ones we saw in 1840, were not suited to be parents in the first place, since we learned that they sent their children away to boarding school.

The resulting adults that we view in 1897, Judith, Edward, Carl, and Quentin, are products of their upbringing, or lack thereof, and, I believe, act the way they do as a result of competition between themselves for attention from Edith and Gabriel. Again, assuming they are the same couple we witnessed in 1840, we know that Gabriel was concerned only with getting out of Quentin's shadow and proving himself to his father, and that Edith was so disloyal and flighty that its a wonder she could've lived (oops) to be as old as she was and still reside at Collinwood. Much of the time they probably paid no attention to their grandchildren, because they were too concerned with themselves, and plotting against each other.

All the children, as a result of this, probably competed for attention from them, craving some type of parental guidance and care. The rivalry that was spawned speaks to why none of them get along when they are older, and, we hope, wiser.

Judith may have attempted to win affection from Edith by becoming a young matriarch. She made it her mission to learn everything about running the house, believing that this was what a good woman would do, and what her grandmother would want to see from her. But trying to impress Edith by doing all these things most definitely would've failed, and Edith may have even chastised Judith for her attempts (given that Edith never really ran the household anyway). Over time Judith became hardened, seeing that nothing she did would gain her respect or attention from her grandmother. Because of her constant attempts to impress her mother figure, she had no time for relationships, which led to her being very naive regarding love and marriage. Judith being a religious woman, or at least beliving and God, and thinking that donating to Trask's school might impress someone (God, maybe?) she offered to rebuild his school, and then he subsequently professed his (false) love for her, and because she had never been in a serious relationship, and was naive in that department, not to mention that she was so taken that someone was going to finally pay attention to her, that she fell quickly.

The other possibility is that once she realized that Edith was never going to take care of the children, she stepped up to the plate and the result of having to be a mother to three unappreciative children made her cold and hard.

Edward, meanwhile, cast himself as an upper class, stiff-upper-lippy guy, who was concerned only with protecting the family name and doing well in business, all in the name of gaining respect from his father figure, Gabriel. When none of this worked, Edward upped his game until he became the stuck-up, ambivalent guy that he is.

Carl took the usual road that kids take--being obnoxious, loud, and pranking in order to get attention. Because he wasn't parented and told not to do these things, he thought they were okay, so he contined to do them even into adulthood, because they were his only source of comfort and pleasure, and the only way anyone would ever pay attention to him.

Quentin recognized his natural ability to charm people at a young age, and put his charm to work, attempting to get attention in this way from his grandparents. After years of trying different approaches, his charm now perfected, and having realized that he would never get anything out of those two old bitties, he turned to womanizing to feel something, anything at all. Adding booze to that only increased the pleasure, and the young playboy that we saw in 1897 was born.

Now, of course, none of this is based on anything but what we saw in the series, and all of this is mere speculation on my part. But I think that its not too far-fetched to see origins of these people in the way that they act as adults, because if they had attention from their grandparents they wouldn't have tried to appeal to the ideals that they thought their grandparents had.

But, it's always possible that Gabriel and Edith DID have a hand in these children's upbringings, and that they taught each one of them a golden aspect of their personalities, whether it be lying, cheating, stealing, drinking, womanizing, backstabbing, etc.

[Bob_the_Bartender]

It has been said that a person (and their resulting character) is often a direct reflection of their parents' influence on them.  And I think that everyone is right on the money with their insightful comments on the "quality" of Judith and her three brothers' upbringing.  Kudos to you all!   Oy vey, with Edith and Gabriel around, it was probably like "Mommie and Daddy Dearest Come to Collinwood"!     

Still, even with Judith's apparent difficult childhood, I can't get over her unconscionable treatment of Beth Chavez; Beth is given the extremely difficult (if not dangerous) task of caring for the longtime "resident" of the tower room (in addition to the rest of Beth's arduous tasks at Collinwood).  And, yet, when Beth finally leaves her job, Judith (against her "better" wishes) reluctantly and begrudgingly (and only after Edward's insistence) gives Beth two-weeks severance pay.  Wow, how cheap can you be!?!   I  could offer the explanation that Judith has "short arms ."  (She just doesn't like reaching down into her pockets or her purse.)  However, Judith's miserliness is of such enormous proportions that I think that she is a person of almost nymphomaniacal-like niggardliness.       

And, how mean-spirited was Judith when she tried to have Magda and Sandor evicted from the Old House?  Since Magda and Sandor were, in all likelihood, presumptive undocumented aliens, I would not have put it past the "Collinwood Queen of Mean," to have called on the 19th century equivalent of the Immigration Control and Enforcement Agency (or "ICE") to oust the Racosi's from the Collinwood estate. 

I guess that 18th century France had its Madame De Farge and and that the 19th century United States had its Madame Judith Collins-Trask.     (Thankfully, Elizabeth Collins-Stoddard was such a fine, admirable and, most importantly, loving parent toward both her daughter, Carolyn, and her young nephew, David.) 

[MagnusTrask]

It's always a wonder to me that Magda and Sandor manage to live in a mansion on the estate at all.    It's funny just seeing them there, dropping by the big house occasionally.....   If gypsies were still roaming around in wagons these days, they'd be looked down on today, too.   I'm not saying that's good, but the Collinses were always unrealistically depicted as rich people in the real world.     The 1897 Collinses, not a nice bunch at first and not egalitarians, would have died rather than let gypsies be there.   I forget all the reasons they were allowed there, though.    Anyway, gypsies would have evoked the same sort of distaste and horror as homeless people would in the rich or even middle-class... come to think of it, technically they were homeless.... well, not while at Collinwood.

[Gothick]

First, to Magnus--Magda and Sandor got to live at the Old House because Magda had wormed her way into Grandma-mamma's graces as her "spiritual advisor."  The OH was regarded by the rest of the family as a wreck, since it had been abandoned after the deaths of Barnabas and Angelique.  While it is made crystal clear that Judith and Edward, in particular, despise the Gypsys (or Rom, to use one of the words more preferred by the Romanii diasporic peoples today) and Judith orders them off the estate immediately after Grandma-mamma's death, we get to see firsthand some of their ingenuity in staying put--plus, of course, dear cousin Barnabas is involved at this point.

I can't remember what I thought of her as a child (beyond always admiring the elegance and grace with which Joan Bennett invariably comported herself--to me, she WAS aristocracy), but as an adult, I do feel sympathy for Judith.  When we start to see her more devious side in the "LIttle Foxes" stuff, it adds extra layers of nuance to what is already a very complex character.  When she becomes the victim of Greggie-puss Trask, again our perception of her switches and I do feel particular sympathy for her in those straits.  Even if her own residual bigotry and intolerance were the weaknesses that made her such ideal prey for Trask.

Her return, and the denouement of her story, are just magnificent.  I'm really looking forward to watching these scenes again on the DVDs.  Despite all the endless whining and complianing about the final month or so of 1897, Judith's story in that period always has me riveted to my seat.

G.

[MagnusTrask]

[spoiler]I think perhaps directors in late 1897 didn't understand the bodyswap idea, and how to have actors play it.   That's what makes that period look silly.    Thayer David was never actually going to sound like David Selby, ever, but an actor that talented probably could have come up with something satisfying.    Quentin-in-Petofi was also written as a damsel-in-distress when Q's got to be a bad enemy for anyone to have.    He wouldn't have kept blurting out and weeping "I am Quentin!!!" everywhere he goes.   Someone could easily have used that as a reason to disbelieve him.... You're Quentin Collins?   I've never heard anything so absurd in all my life!  (guess who that is!)    Say what you will about my brother... he'd never behave in this maudlin a fashion!

The end of 1897 really picks up.... when everybody dies horribly!

Off topic, sorry.   Maybe Judith needed humbling, to be brought down first by Dirk and then by Trask, in order to come back fighting eventually, but as a better strong person as opposed to the strong yet distorted creature of privelege she began as.

I like what people have said on all this... I forget who said what right now.[/spoiler]

[Pansity]

Great topic!  Wish I weren't coming into it late. Little Foxes, for sure, and in the later stuff I also see Catherine Sloper of The Heiress (or Washington Square if you prefer the book to the play or movie version).

Love a lot of the speculation I'm reading here.  One thing I don't see pointed out though, is the diference in education between boys and girls in that time.  Oldest or not, Judith's education would have consisted of basic reading writing and arithmetic, NO college, but a Finishing School (such as Joan Bennett herself went to) where she would be taught to run a big house and entertain and be a nice, brainless ornament to some man of her class chosen as a business transaction rather than a love match.  And, as mentioned, this family and their backbiting and undermining of each other to grandmama (who probably played them off against each other from a young age, simply because SHE COULD), and the quote from Judith at Edith's grave about being forbidden to ever cry, since its a sign of weakness, takes even Victorian reserve, lack of emotion and stiff upper lip to new levels.  Admission of caring or other emotions meant weakness which left you vulnerable to manipulation by one of the others.

Then there's the age gap between the two oldest and the "babies" -- change of life babies, or one or more lost siblings which had to be mourned without any shameful crying or show of emotion?

Then again, to what extent DID these siblings ever live together since childhood? Social norm for a well off Gilded age family who hobnobbed with the British aristocracy was to have a governess for a time, then boarding school and, for the boys,  a "suitable" uppercrust college such as Harvard or Yale, where they were expected to get "gentleman's C's" before settling into the family business or a life of leisure.  Meanwhile, as grandmamamamamamama got more and more frail and old, its the only girl who will end up with sole responsibility for caring for her.  Men don't do such things.

Judith breaks the period mold in a lot of ways -- In her younger days Edith probably ruled, like Scarlett O' Hara, by manipulating men who only saw the feminine sweet appearance.  Judith seems to have been skipped over for feminine wiles, and Baby brother Q went back for thirds on charm and manipulating people.  Trask took her in by attacking her with kindness, against which she had few defenses.  And the way she and her brothers had always undermined each other, she would take any warning as just one more attempt to keep her in her place.  (LOL just thought of the WONDERFUL scene where she rousts Edward out of bed to announce she is moving rooms!  PRICELESS!)

THough, interestingly enough, as Judith develops and Quentin grows up during the course of the storyline, you see that they have the most in common of any of the siblings.  As the Romulan Commander put it in Balance of Terror "In a different reality I could have called you friend..."  Both are pragmatic, and realists;  neither is overburdened with scruples when they feel something must be done. And the sense I got in their last scene was that Quentin knew full well from what she said and how she said it that she was responsible for Gregory's disappearance -- and that she knew that he knew. Not to mention thought the more of her for it.

One more classic Judith scene that comes to mind is her challenging Trask and letting "Pansity" move back in -- despite his orders to the contrary.  Loved her conspiring with Pansity to tweak Trask's nose about Amanda Harris.

I really better stop playing in the old posts now....

Jeannie