Author Topic: Discuss - Ep #0508  (Read 5179 times)

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Discuss - Ep #0508
« on: March 26, 2008, 07:12:42 PM »
Robservations #508

(NOTE: Remember - no episode tomorrow because DS was pre-empted on Thursday, June 6, 1968 for a report on the assassination of Robert Kennedy. Ep #509 is Friday's episode.)

Offline Patti Feinberg

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 07:31:38 PM »
I'm probably in the minority here, but I didn't hate the dream sequence.

I don't believe I've seen this ep; actually, while reading in Robservations about Sam Evans, I thought his character had already died off the show.

That is pretty coincidental how Stokes dreams of Sam then Sam for no reason shows up at a stranger's door (Stokes).

(If Carolyn is age 19, well then so am I....)

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 08:23:44 PM »
I love the confrontation between Professor Stokes and Angelique in the dream. Angelique expected to manipulate him into doing what she wants, just like she did with Ben. Boy was she in for a rude awakening.... [ghost_tongue2]

I don't know what the purpose of luring Sam to the Old House was. Stokes never opened any of the doors. There was nothing of any importance that he could have told Sam (unless telling him about confronting a centuries-old witch could have triggered it and I suppose it could have).  Of course, Sam could have been on his way to the Old House while Stokes was having the dream....Angelique HAD to have lured Sam somehow...believing Stokes would be just as terrified out of his wits as the others to tell the dream....

I think Angelique has met her match in Professor Stokes. [ghost_wink]

Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 11:35:54 AM »
Patti, I love the dream curse.  It's like a scientific laboratory: 11 or 12 actors are each put through roughly the same scene, and we see how each of them handles it.

As for Carolyn's age, yes, I was thinking to myself: "Hmm...how old was she when Vicky arrived at Collinwood?  And she was already finished with school?"

So, Stokes had the Dream and beat it.  Very mysterious. I think it must be that Angelique had never intended him to have the Dream, so when he did, she lost control.  So we go back to Stokes's hypnotizing of Carolyn yesterday, and once again I would like to know what happened.
 
"You are out of your century, but I am secure in mine."  Something like that.  I don't understand that.  It was Cassandra who started the Dream Curse - or was it?  I'm trying to remember what we actually saw her doing, and I don't remember her doing much.  We have seen her talking about the Dream, though.  So we can't say that Angelique is solely responsible for the Dream and that in her Cassandra form she's malicious in general but innocent of this.  So why, when she confronted Professor Stokes, was she pure Angelique?  She seemed to be telling the truth when she denied knowledge of Cassandra, and she should have recognized Stokes rather than mistaking him for Ben.  Very strange.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 08:19:31 PM »
As for Carolyn's age, yes, I was thinking to myself: "Hmm...how old was she when Vicky arrived at Collinwood?

It's established in Ep #5 that Carolyn is 17. Several topics on the forum discuss this.  [ghost_smiley]

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And she was already finished with school?"

Presumably. Whenever her school experiences are discussed, it's always in the past tense.

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It was Cassandra who started the Dream Curse - or was it?  I'm trying to remember what we actually saw her doing, and I don't remember her doing much.

Prior to Cassandra beginning the Dream Curse with Maggie in Ep #478, in Ep #477 we saw Barnabas have a dream in which Angelique visited him as herself to instigate the Dream Curse:


1968: Ep #477 - In a dream, Angelique explains how her curse
will return to Barnabas via a Dream Curse.

Quote
We have seen her talking about the Dream, though.  So we can't say that Angelique is solely responsible for the Dream and that in her Cassandra form she's malicious in general but innocent of this.  So why, when she confronted Professor Stokes, was she pure Angelique?  She seemed to be telling the truth when she denied knowledge of Cassandra, and she should have recognized Stokes rather than mistaking him for Ben.  Very strange.

As for Angelique denying knowledge of Cassandra, that is strange - well, unless one considers that she simply lied to Stokes to attempt to cover Cassandra's true identity, which is very possible - and Angelique lies quite convincingly. Though given all that Stokes had confronted her with, one would think she should have realized that trying to cover her tracks was useless. Then again, when has attempting something that's ultimately useless ever actually stopped Angelique?  [wink2]

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 09:26:02 PM »
Lydia-- It sounds as if you see Ang and Cassandra as not quite being the same exact person, as if she didn't just change appearance, but changed form.    The only thing different about Cassandra besides appearance was her knowledge of the "present"... maybe that's enough.  I'm prepared to be convinced.   
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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 09:35:52 PM »
[spoiler]We know without a doubt from future revelations (including those made by the woman herself) that Angelique and Cassandra are one and the same in every way imaginable except for appearance.[/spoiler]

Offline alwaysdavid

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 04:16:04 AM »
Considering how some nights last for weeks and that when Vickie was in the past no present time elapsed, Carolyn shoud probably still be seventeen.
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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2008, 05:09:30 AM »
It's established in Ep #5 that Carolyn is 17. Several topics on the forum discuss this.  [ghost_smiley]

I know they changed different parts of the story back and forth, but I thought I remembered her being 18 and how her father left right after she was born.  I know that's not what they said later...

On the recap for the beginning of the Barney episodes, DVD #1, the narrator/voiceover says Carolyn is 18.

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2008, 05:27:01 AM »
I know they changed different parts of the story back and forth, but I thought I remembered her being 18 and how her father left right after she was born.

In Ep #5 Carolyn states that Liz hasn't left the estate for 18 years - and those 18 years began six months before Carolyn was born - because Liz has supposedly been waiting all that time for Carolyn's father to return. It isn't until Leviathans that they decide to rewrite history. And as much as I hate the rewriting of soap history (and soaps do it far too frequently) I suppose it was necessary in Leviathans because it certainly would have been kind of hard for Paul to have turned over his most prized possession when 1) that prized possession hadn't even been born yet and, thus, 2) he wouldn't have had the level of emotional attachment and investment that would have made his baby daughter his most prized possession.  [wink2]

Quote
On the recap for the beginning of the Barney episodes, DVD #1, the narrator/voiceover says Carolyn is 18.

She may have been by the time Barnabas arrived (Carolyn's birth month keeps changing), but if they were implying Carolyn was 18 when the show began (I haven't watched the recap in ages), well, whoever wrote that narration wasn't paying attention - or worse yet, didn't even bother to research Carolyn's age at the start of the series. (Perhaps that same person also worked on the PomPress books.  [ghost_wink]  [ghost_rolleyes]  [ghost_angry])

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 07:54:44 AM »
Reply #6 from MB comes up blank for me.  Is there something I'm not seeing, or is it deliberately blank?
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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 10:06:46 AM »
1) Carolyn's age. I think the first time they fudged on that was long before the Leviathan period: it was when Elizabeth was telling the story in 1968 of Paul last night at Collinwood.  It seems to me the idea was that Carolyn was already born when Paul quit the scene.

2) Angelique and Cassandra. I do see them as being the same exact person.  It was Angelique who raised the possibility that they were not, when she said she didn't know who Cassandra Collins was.  I agree with MB that Angelique was a good liar, but I still think that she was not lying.  Professor Stokes said, “You are out of your century, but I am secure in mine,” and that seemed to be the final word on the subject during the encounter.  I don't understand it, and I doubt that it ever was explained – but that's what I think.

3) The beginning of Dream Curse.  Yes, we saw Angelique tell Barnabas about it in his dream, but I did not take that to be the point at which the curse was created.  And I don't remember Angelique/Cassandra doing any spell-type stuff as Maggie was going to sleep and becoming the first character have the first Dream – or have I forgotten something?

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 08:24:18 PM »
Reply #6 from MB comes up blank for me.  Is there something I'm not seeing, or is it deliberately blank?

Discussion continues on the Testing 1, 2, 3 board in this topic:

Spoiler space is blank / was Re: Discuss - Ep #0508

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 10:43:58 PM »
1) Carolyn's age. I think the first time they fudged on that was long before the Leviathan period: it was when Elizabeth was telling the story in 1968 of Paul last night at Collinwood.  It seems to me the idea was that Carolyn was already born when Paul quit the scene.

Ah, yes - that's true. Now that you mention it, not only does Paul indicate in the '67 flashback to '49 that Carolyn is two (which jibes with Leviathans), but I seem to recall Jason laying it on thickly while telling Carolyn how much Paul loved her. Though in my defense, and as I and others have opined on the forum, some of us have tended to think of the dating in that storyline as an aberration if only because it conflicts with most of what came both before and after it. As I and others have also mentioned on the forum, our rule of thumb when it comes to inconsistencies on DS is to go with what's mentioned most often, and in most instances within the storylines the indications are most often consistent with Carolyn being 17 at the start of the series. (And actually, another thing that's odd and aberrant about the Jason/Liz blackmail period is the listings in the family bible because the ep in which Liz writes in the date of her death aired in July, yet Liz writes the month/day of her death as April 10th.  [hdscrt]  ::)  That's the only time in DS history when a month that's somehow referenced on the show doesn't correspond exactly to the month an ep actually aired.)

Honestly, I like the suggestion Gerard made back in 2005 that perhaps we should add all of Carolyn various birthdays together and divide them to get to the truth of what might be her actual birthday/age.  ;)  After all, some ladies just love to lie about their ages. So, perhaps in Carolyn's case, the conflicts are all caused by so-called little white lies, so we can't trust anything we see or hear.  [lghy]

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2) Angelique and Cassandra. I do see them as being the same exact person.  It was Angelique who raised the possibility that they were not, when she said she didn't know who Cassandra Collins was.  I agree with MB that Angelique was a good liar, but I still think that she was not lying.  Professor Stokes said, “You are out of your century, but I am secure in mine,” and that seemed to be the final word on the subject during the encounter.  I don't understand it, and I doubt that it ever was explained – but that's what I think.

Well, even discounting the fact that I mentioned in my apparently invisible spoiler: (SPOILER: We know without a doubt from future revelations (including those made by the woman herself) that Angelique and Cassandra are one and the same in every way imaginable except for appearance.), and simply going by that scene alone, I see things very differently. I just had the chance to watch it and to me that remark of Stokes' doesn't come across as the final word at all. Angelique appears more and more desperate as she lashes out with threats at Stokes' continued spiel of truths until finally she simply vanishes in defeat. I mean, this is not the facial expression of a confident woman:


There's confusion and fright in that expression.

Quote
3) The beginning of Dream Curse.  Yes, we saw Angelique tell Barnabas about it in his dream, but I did not take that to be the point at which the curse was created.  And I don't remember Angelique/Cassandra doing any spell-type stuff as Maggie was going to sleep and becoming the first character have the first Dream – or have I forgotten something?

Yes, in Ep #478 we see Cassandra calling for the start of the Dream Curse and proclaiming it will begin with Maggie. She picks a leaf from the branch hanging outside Collinwood's drawing room window...:

From Robservations:
Drawing room - Cassandra, in a black velvet cape, tells Barnabas the time has come. His fate was sealed almost 200 years ago, and he can't change his destiny or permanently escape. The curse will fall back on him, forever, she promises. "Let the dream curse begin this night," she says, "it will be carried by the wind until it finds its way to someone who is the image of one you loved--go deep into the sleeping mind of Maggie Evans, and she will be the first to know the terrible fear it carries with it." Cass takes a leaf from the tree outside the window and tosses it. "Sleep, Maggie, sleep," she murmurs.

...and after tossing it we see that same leaf appear on Maggie's pillow and as Maggie begins the dream:

And from Robservations:
Quote
Maggie sleeps in her bed. Cassandra tells her she will allow the dream to enter, become its prisoner, until her fear reaches the limit of her endurance. "Let the dream begin, now. . ."

Offline EmeraldRose

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0508
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2008, 12:17:38 AM »
Excellent episode! [clap2] It was fun to watch Prof. Stokes tackle Angelique! He was so calm, cool and collected, and he broke all the rules. [ghost_wink]

Carolyn's age is just one of the many inconsistencies of DS. It's too bad TPTB weren't more diligent about it.  [ghost_sad]

That last scene sure was scary, with a bloodied Adam pulling a knife on a blind Sam. [shkdg] By the way, I always thought it was silly for blind people to wear sunglasses, even indoors. [ghost_wacko] I guess maybe it's so others can see them and know to steer clear of them?  [ghost_huh]

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