DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '09 I => Topic started by: Watching Project on April 02, 2009, 10:02:53 PM
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Robservations #749
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Wow, what a great episode! I LOVE early 1897! [cheers]
I hate to say this, but Quentin really did deserve Magda's curse. I can hardly believe that he still has a conscience after his little rendevouz with Laura and his dabbling in the black arts. Is it just me, or does Beth seem wiser and stronger in the first few weeks of this storyline than later on? It makes me wonder why she was at all surprised when [spoiler] Angelique told her that Quentin wasn't going to marry her[/spoiler]
Sandor finally showed some backbone in this episode. He doesn't really stand up to Magda, let alone Edward. You can really feel the family grief in this episode. [easter_cry]
The dream sequence was very well-done. I'm glad they brought back Jenny for one last episode, just to have her torment Quentin. [easter_grin]
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Now I see why Q was out to kill Jenny now, though. For years, I hadn't seen the earlier bit where [spoiler]Jenny killed Quentin.[/spoiler] Can you blame him all that much?
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Yes, you can, because Jenny was mad when [spoiler]she killed Quentin[/spoiler]
whereas Quentin should've known better.
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Another excellent episode, with great acting from all and sundry. Nice Louis Edmonds voiceover. I don't think there's been that many of them, especially in 1897.
And here we see Magda, immediately running to prepare her revenge. Jumping in with both feet, essentially making it up as she goes along, since she's only seen this done once, long ago (and from what we learn later, we can't even take this for the full truth). And here we have the first mention of... COUNT PETOFI. [milestone] Of course, the story we get from Magda bears virtually no resemblance to anything we learn later....
Now we see the panic stricken Quentin, locked in his room, unable to sleep. And Edward, who seems to think there's some switch you can turn in your head to stop thinking about horrible things. Given how it all played out, AND his earlier memories of Jenny stabbing him, he's probably having a whopping case of PTSD. Every time he tries to sleep he's probably got two interchangeable loops replaying endlessly in his mind: reliving him getting stabbed by Jenny, and reliving him killing her.
Edward's arrogance is so incredibly Victorian Robber Baron. Yes, the gypsies probably know, but they're gypsies and Quentin is a COLLINS, so that means that they can do nothing. He also expects Barnabas to buy the story without question, no matter what else he's told, simply because they are all COLLINS'. He's also very quick to see how he can use Quentin's panic about Magda to rid himself of Quentin permanently. Quentin is so terrified that he'd agree to do absolutely anything to save himself.
LE does a wonderful job in playing Edward as the right bastard this episode shows him as. The arrogance goes even a step further with burying Jenny without even telling her family. From beginning to end Edward's handling of the matter does almost as much damage with Magda and Sandor as Quentin's original act. It was Edward's cover up made her think it was a deliberate murder, and treating the family as he did just fanned the flames.
Interesting how he gets drowsy and hears Jenny -- which we could put down to a guilty conscience if it weren't for the appearance of the doll. Quentin knew NOTHING about "her babies" or the dolls, so how could he have imagined it? (LOL it's a 60s era plastic drink n wet doll with the hole in the plastic mouth. Probably from the same Woolworths as Barnabas' ring. [easter_evil] ) Poor Quentin's at the end of his rope here, when he's begging for even EDWARD'S company rather than be alone. Very nicely played on the edge of hysterics, I thought at one point he was going to cry. And Edward the ever compassionate can't even spare a non cutting word.
And now we have the funky dream (should I even bother to check who wrote this episode?) [easter_wink] which could have easily been manufactured from Quentin's guilty conscience. Edward was conveniently close to hear Quentin screaming, since apparently Q. has the whole West Wing all to himself.
And we cut back to the schemers (who for some reason right now are making me think of Pinky and the Brain).
Quentin sure was uncharacteristically naieve, trusting them like that. I guess like Edward, he couldn't understand genuine family feeling being more important than money. Or maybe pure terror and lack of sleep rotted his brain....Great cliffhanger ending with Magda making her triumphant announcement, then the look of sheer horror as Quentin realizes he played right into her hands.
Jeannie
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Yes, you can, because Jenny was mad when [spoiler]she killed Quentin[/spoiler]
whereas Quentin should've known better.
Q wasn't judging Jenny's character. He was trying to prevebt himself from being murdered.
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Q wasn't judging Jenny's character. He was trying to prevebt himself from being murdered.
I totally agree. The way it's given to us is that when he returns from zombieland, he remembers everything leading up to losing consciousness from the wound. Anyone who's ever been attacked or been in a disaster reports flashbacks and reliving the episode over and over, changing the ending in their minds. And they tend to react disproportionately if put in the same circumstances (note cops shot in the line who overreact if in a shootout again). Add that together, and my theory on this is that Quentin went into one of those flashbacks/overreactions when Jenny attacked, and was unable to stop even after she was disarmed. That also seems to be where the writers are steering us when they have him sitting there staring at his hands like they belong to someone else. Maybe someone who knows more about PTSD can chime in here and contribute: I'm curious whether Quentin would have a period in the middle where he wouldn't remember when jenny stopped fighting. Would he have just reacted, then been in the flashback until Beth yells at him and he sees Jenny is dead?
Jeannie
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I prefer to look at that whole incident much like the murder committed by the protagonist in Dreiser's An American Tragedy. He plans it out rather carefully, but, when the deed is done, the narration is unclear as to the character's intent at the actual moment. There's certainly enough evidence in the preceding episodes to point to a willful act on Q's part, but the way the actual scene is played makes you wonder, and I think that's part of the genius of 1897. I don't think we're ever meant to know for sure because Q himself doesn't know for sure.
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I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never read An American Tragedy, though of course I've heard of it. The only Dreiser I studied was Sister Carrie, when in Junior High.
From your summary and reading a synopsis, it sounds like just the sort of thing the scriptwriters would -- and did -- lift from on a regular basis. (Another book gets added to my already teetering to be read pile.) Thanks for bringing it up. I'd not have thought of it from that point of view, given my lack of familiarity with the book. The irony of Quentin never knowing for sure exactly whether it was deliberation or panic really appeals to me, especially given his horror after the fact.
I agree totally about the genius of 1897. They don't spoon feed the audience every little thing, but leave it to the audience to interpret. It also goes without saying that they managed that little magic trick of stealing classic plots and circumstances and combining them in such a way as to feed into timeless universal truths.
Jeannie
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Now I see why Q was out to kill Jenny now, though. For years, I hadn't seen the earlier bit where [spoiler]Jenny killed Quentin.[/spoiler] Can you blame him all that much?
I do wonder what occurred in the unchanged timeline because it was made pretty clear that if not for Barnabas, Quentin wouldn't have ended up in the cottage originally, which is where he was reunited with Jenny, and where she murdered him. What caused his murderous intent then, assuming he had one the first time around?
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From your summary and reading a synopsis, it sounds like just the sort of thing the scriptwriters would -- and did -- lift from on a regular basis. (Another book gets added to my already teetering to be read pile.)
I wouldn't put it too near the top of that pile. I read the book in high school, and that's probably the only time I've ever made reference to it. If you've read one book by Dreiser, you've probably exceeded your quota. [ghost_wink]
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I do wonder what occurred in the unchanged timeline because it was made pretty clear that if not for Barnabas, Quentin wouldn't have ended up in the cottage originally, which is where he was reunited with Jenny, and where she murdered him.
I've often thought that it involved Beth in some way, which she wasn't in the version that is shown to us. Maybe
[spoiler]Beth killed Quentin like she does later on in the storyline, but at an earlier date.[/spoiler]
Also, the skeleton in Quentin's room could have been him until Barnabas changed everything. [ghost_undecided]
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fanforever, I was referring to Quentin's motivation to kill Jenny, how he learned she was insane and still at Collinwood, etc. In the 1897 redo (that includes the 1969 Barnabas), Quentin is out to kill her because she murdered him first. But in the original timeline this didn't happen, he didn't rise as a zombie, and Angelique didn't bring him back to life.
(teastrainer, snicker!)
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Jeannie--
From the limited data I allowed myself to read re Q's initial death on this thread, I sense that I've got some revelations ahead. Cool! My DS gap consists of Zombie Q not exactly knocking politely on the door of the Old House, all about to squash hisself a few gypsies, up until the Trask school fire. I guess I oughta come back after I fill in that gap, 'cause your remarks seem interesting.
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I wouldn't put it too near the top of that pile. I read the book in high school, and that's probably the only time I've ever made reference to it. If you've read one book by Dreiser, you've probably exceeded your quota. [ghost_wink]
Thanks for the heads up. Sounds like the spot just underneath Tess of the D'Urbervilles [yikes] might be appropriate. [diablo] I still remember how much I hated that book in 11th grade. Every so often I wonder if I should reread it and see if I've changed my mind -- then I come back to my senses. [angel4]
Hardy makes Ibsen look like screwball comedy.....
By the way, thanks Magnus for the kind words about my posts. If I've helped get you back into watching project, the more the merrier!
Jeannie
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Ack, another voiceover that shows a backwards slide of Collinwood.
Call me crazy, but I didn't sense a lick of remorse or guilt in Quentin in this ep. What I saw (JMO) was his fear of repercussions, especially his terror of what Magda surely had in store for him. (The voiceover described his existence as one of "uncertainty and fear" but I don't recall it mentioning a guilty conscience.) During the dream, he made excuses (denial is a river in Egypt) for his actions, insinuating that he had no choice because she had a knife and was going to use it on him. And I noticed that he seemed almost giddy once he thought Magda had "removed" her curse. I half expected Q to say, at some point, "Me, me, me, it's all about ME." I mean, how self-centered must he be to passionately kiss the woman he just murdered, even in a nightmare?
And there's also no sign here of the little bit of empathy and kindness that I thought Edward showed in #748. BTW, I'm thinking that he had Jenny buried quickly to hide the evidence of strangulation (and the lack of injuries from a fall), but it's just a guess.
Wow, Quentin heard Jenny's voice and the doll showed up immediately after Magda declared that Jenny's "spirit will not rest." Way to telegraph to the viewers that we were about to see was a haunting!
And now we have the funky dream (should I even bother to check who wrote this episode?) [easter_wink]
Sorry, it was written by Gordon Russell and not Violet W, if that's what you meant. [ghost_wink] What cracked me up about the dream was Magda's secret knock on the drawing room door, lol. And as yet more evidence that I'm easily entertained, I found it interesting to see how far Magda had to lead Q (in the dark!) to get him from the West Wing set to the foyer set. And OMG, Quentin woke from the dream screaming like a girl!! [lghy]
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Voiceover: LE
They sure are working David Selby hard but I am enjoying every single minute of his time on the screen. It goes to show you that no matter how talented someone is the may not get “discovered” unless all the cards fall into place. He wasn't by any means old when he landed DS. I know he worked in theatre, but this man "NEEDED" to be on the screen. :) Cool to take note of the first mention of Count Petofi..I noticed that this second time around 1897! :) Does Q own only one suit?? I have commented on the color schemes in 1897 and I would like to comment again~~I love the colors in Q's room! Beautiful!
Love the close up on David. He has such pretty boylashes that compliment his gorgeous eyes (I seem to confuse the spelling check a lot with my made up words) [ghost_wink] Q crazy party of one…LOL.. Poor Quentin. I know he is horrid but one sympathizes with him. I tend to like bad boys any way, so there is NO hope for me! I would be just like Beth and every other woman who he fluttered his eyes at: Jello!!!
“I don't want her to see me now…not like this!” Quentin whines. Edward nods, “Well I can't say I blame you there!” Louis deadpans which totally has me cracking up every time I watch this episode! Moments, no matter how insignificant to “others” is what keeps one coming back to this show for more.
I love Magda’s tambourine jig. It's AWESOME!! LOVES IT!! Love the squiggle effect, lighting, and hazy look for the dream. I look for Magda to break out in song. Perhaps ‘Mr. Tambourine Man??’ Hey if Buffy can do it, then why not DS?? The characters are larger than life I can totally see a musical. Anyhoo…Darkening the set and letting an actor travel from stage to stage is quite effective. I think when shows are on limited budgets at times it really pushes the producers to come up with stuff. And more times than not it's more creative than if the show had a lavish production pay scale. I know Charmed’s budget was cut in its final year and I thought it was one of the “most creative” seasons of the show! I am so jealous of Marie. LOL I have ALWAYS admired Grayson’s lovely peach colored nail polish. It looks good on her! Grayson and Thayer: What a dynamic duo!
A+
I do love the purple round couch. I think Pansity pointed it out in another thread. It is truly lovely!
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It goes to show you that no matter how talented someone is the may not get “discovered” unless all the cards fall into place.
And that's getting harder and harder for actors of ability, as the emphasis in casting has changed from talent to an emphasis on pretty plastic people, with talent secondary. [82b5] I've never really been into soaps, but I gather a lot of times lately they hire for looks alone, then try to bring someone up to speed. Remember hearing about a number of cases where that worked SOO well that they had to scurry and get a replacement who could handle basic acting skills. A far cry from when DS filmed, where by and large they got good ACTORS who were attractive.
Does Q own only one suit??
Sure seems that way, doesn't it? [ghost_wink] I think there might be two: one navy one very dark grey. That's of course assuming it's not a trick of the lighting. But in his first ep they did have a different outfit. For some weird reason, the frockcoat was worn with beige or some similar color riding britches. Seems a weird combination. That disappeared pretty quickly, and we were left with Quentin's closetful of identical suits -- instantly replaceable in case of wolf out. [Wolfie]
LOL I remember a running joke with some friends about that being why he didn't have the obligatory valet -- someone would have noticed the magically disappearing/messed up clothing. And since Grandmamama only promised him a roof over his head (not even food was included, we were cracking lately [ghost_wink] ) he better have had a good supply of clothes on hand already.
He has such pretty boylashes that compliment his gorgeous eyes
You can see the Black Irish and Welsh ancestry there. Light eyes "put in with a dirty finger". Totally ironic that he and JB looked so much like siblings in this storyline, since that's not the coloring she was born with. Yet it's so perfect for her (especially with the previously mentioned dark green dress!).
Poor Quentin. I know he is horrid but one sympathizes with him. I tend to like bad boys any way, so there is NO hope for me!
Yeah but the thing with Quentin is that he's three dimentional horrid. You see the bad behavior but they also show you hints so when they develop the character it's not totally out of left field where you go [scratch] where did THAT come from. And LOL Bad boy rakes are more interesting anyway -- more levels and more places to go with the character for actors AND fanfiction. [ghost_wink]
“I don't want her to see me now…not like this!” Quentin whines. Edward nods, “Well I can't say I blame you there!” Louis deadpans which totally has me cracking up every time I watch this episode! Moments, no matter how insignificant to “others” is what keeps one coming back to this show for more.
Yes, I love the wisecracks and the dry humor. LOL thats something seems consistant across the shows I've really gotten involved with -- not to mention my addiction to 30s movies. And FYI Falcon Crest has the same kind of witty humor -- I have a friend who made up a "legendary quotes" site with all the great snappy dialog.
Jeannie
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I love Old Hollywood movies too and that is why I enjoy seeing Joan Bennett so much on DS. She really brought the "class"
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Yes, I love the wisecracks and the dry humor. LOL thats something seems consistant across the shows I've really gotten involved with -- not to mention my addiction to 30s movies. And FYI Falcon Crest has the same kind of witty humor -- I have a friend who made up a "legendary quotes" site with all the great snappy dialog.
How 'bout The West Wing and Gilmore Girls?
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How 'bout The West Wing and Gilmore Girls?
LOL I could probably bore people to death with my list of good ensemble shows with great wisecracking writing. Never seen Gilmore Girls (too many shows, not enough time), but West Wing is a particular favorite to the point where I invested in the entire series on dvd. Matter of fact, the reason I went to the National Cathedral was actually NOTHING to do with Selby, but EVERYTHING to do with the episode "Two Cathedrals". I've got a youtube clip of the finale on my facebook page [ghost_wink].
We've discussed Blakes 7 before in that vein, and I'd add goodies like Babylon 5, original Trek and Blackadder (and that's the short list [ghost_rolleyes].
Jeannie
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And here we have the first mention of... COUNT PETOFI.[milestone]
Oh, no, Jeannie! You beat me to it! [8311] Oh well... Here's another milestone: This was the episode when Magda and Sandor tricked Quentin into drinking the potion. [milestone]
I like the profile of Quentin superimposed over the image of Collinwood. Great effect. [thumb]
[spoiler]Quentin's nightmare reminds me of the Dream Curse. Quentin didn't want to, but he was compelled to follow Magda. Also, Magda knocked on the door, just like in the Dream Curse. I enjoyed watching Quentin in this dream - it's almost like he participated in the Dream Curse![/spoiler]
I, too, really enjoyed watching all the colors in the dream. I always love the dreams on DS. Psychedelic colors are fun! [color] It was great to see MW again as Jenny, so she could give Quentin the "kiss of death".
David Selby does a fantabulous job as the frightened Quentin. [clap2] It was thrilling to watch him be so afraid. It was humorous to watch Edward tell Quentin to "get a hold of himself". That's the second time Edward uttered that line since Jenny died - I guess he liked to say it! [ghost_wink]
It was entertaining to watch Quentin be so scared of what would happen that he begged Edward to give him money with which to brag Magda and be so agreeable to leaving Collinwood. He was so terror-stricken that he even wanted Edward to stay with him! [ghost_cheesy]
----- Sally -----
[snow_bigglass] [hippy2]
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I think that's part of the genius of 1897. I don't think we're ever meant to know for sure because Q himself doesn't know for sure.
Part of the genius of 1795 is that we never know for sure what exactly happened between Angelique and Barnabas, beyond the fact that there was sex.
I liked the way Sandor and Magda worked so well together when they were fooling Quentin: Magda saying no to Quentin's offer of money, and Sandor apparently persuading her to think again. I daresay they had done that sort of thing many, many times when they were on the road together.
It must have been nice for Louis Edmonds to get a good line like “Well I can't say I blame you there!” He got lines like that all the time in the first year of the show, and now he's playing straight (rigidly straight) man to David Selby most of the time.
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Part of the genius of 1795 is that we never know for sure what exactly happened between Angelique and Barnabas, beyond the fact that there was sex.
Ain't it the truth. You can play that one any which way tickles your fancy (or any other body parts). Then again, the more obscure the original telling, the more fanfiction people can get out of it. Almost never a bad thing.
I liked the way Sandor and Magda worked so well together when they were fooling Quentin: Magda saying no to Quentin's offer of money, and Sandor apparently persuading her to think again. I daresay they had done that sort of thing many, many times when they were on the road together.
Yeah they were a great team. I bet they had the schtick down to a science.
Jeannie