Author Topic: Discuss - Ep #0642  (Read 1990 times)

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Discuss - Ep #0642
« on: February 19, 2014, 05:36:03 PM »
Robservations #642

And if you'd care to look back, the first WP discussion topic for this ep:
Re: Discuss - Ep #0642

Offline DarkLady

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2014, 07:48:01 PM »
Elizabeth and Vicki are in exactly opposite positions from when Elizabeth so nearly jumped from Widows Hill. Luckily, Stokes and Elizabeth talk Vicki out of jumping and take her home.

The moon must be past the full, because Chris brings Carolyn home from a date/drink/whatever. Carolyn talks about the terrible attack of the night before. Chris is gazing at what only his mind’s eye can see. I’m more upset about the girl even than you are, he says. I didn't know her, but.... Just as Carolyn asks him why he's so hard to understand, Stokes and Elizabeth return with Vicki. Carolyn asks fearfully if Vicki was attacked by "that animal." Stokes replies, No--she was attacked by fate, that's all.

While Vicki sobs her heart out in her room, begging Jeff to give her a sign, suddenly we hear the sound effects associated at Collinwood with an astral manifestation. A glowing blue orb appears. Ecstatic, Vicki exclaims, I’m sure it’s Jeff! The other two stare at her. The orb fades, and she sighs with disappointment. But she is at last vindicated. You saw it! she exults to Elizabeth and Stokes. We know he's been trying to reach me, but why can't he do it? It is a manifestation, Stokes admits. I might know a way to reach him. He tells Elizabeth, Stay with her--I'll be back. After he leaves, Elizabeth tells Vicki, I’m sorry I ever doubted you. They embrace.

Stokes returns downstairs. He and Chris introduce themselves, and Stokes reveals he wants them to participate in--all together now--a séance! Chris is dead set against it, even though Stokes argues that if they can get Jeff to stop her, Vicki might not try suicide again. Carolyn pleads with Chris to stay, and he finally agrees. Stokes tells Elizabeth what he has planned, but she has deep misgivings that another séance might send Vicki back to the past again. But Vicki is eager to participate.

Stokes gives everyone the usual instructions, although he hardly needs to. tokes tells Jeff, We know you are trying to communicate with your wife. Speak through one of us. Suddenly, they hear the manifestation sounds they heard in Vicki’s room. Stokes tells Jeff, Please give us a sign. Please, Jeff, Vicki echoes. I sense a presence, Stokes says. Is it Jeff? No, Vicki says unhappily, not Jeff. If there is a spirit, Stokes says. Tell us who you are and why you came here. Elizabeth says, I just felt someone turning my head, eyes staring at me, a hand... Do you want to end the séance? Stokes asks. No, Elizabeth replies, she's gone. It was definitely a woman's hand. (Perhaps it was small.) Please continue. Stokes calls to Jeff again.

Suddenly Carolyn moans as she goes into the trance. Chris is alarmed, but Stokes reassures him. Carolyn moans, I heard the widows wailing. You must-- you must-- stop him! Who? Stokes asks. _He_ must not come back! Carolyn cries. Do you mean Jeff? Stokes asks. No, Carolyn replies, but she can’t or won’t say who she means. You must stop him! she begs them. He must stay where he is! Who are you? Stokes asks. Magda! she replies (first mention of Magda). My curse! My curse! she almost screams with increasing anguish and remorse. What curse? Stokes asks. Carolyn screams again. Unable to bear any more, Chris shouts, Stop it! He pulls Carolyn into his arms, ending the séance. Stokes tells them, Whoever was here is gone. Wailing with despair, Vicki runs from the room. Elizabeth follows her. Chris continues to hold Carolyn protectively. In an unusual display of anger, all the more explosive for its rarity, Stokes turns to him and demands, I would like to know exactly why you did that!…...




Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2014, 10:05:30 PM »
Ooh, an astral manifestation!   This might be the kind of thing ghost experts (?) actually talk about.   Nice white ball with blue aura.   Seemed real too.  Elliot and Liz see it along with Vicki.

Another seance.    Is this still Vicki and Jeff's wedding night?   Crossed story threads!  That's my favorite DS thing.  They try to reach Jeff and get Magda.   Groundwork is being laid for the storyline that takes up most of 1969.   Welcome, Magda Racosi!   She gets to mention the Curse, and it's unclear at this point whether the writers intended Chris's interruption of the seance to be a conscious attempt to stop anyone finding out about his past and his curse.   They do seem to intend there to be a connection to Chris (though that's in the next episode), confirming I think that the writers intended from the beginning for Quentin's and Chris's stories to be linked.
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Offline DarkLady

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2014, 06:22:27 PM »
MT, I agree with you that the writers always intended for Quentin's and Chris's stories to be linked. I really like it when they take such a long-range view of things. That's one of the reasons that the 1970 story line with its mysteries is one of my favorites, although I know that not everyone shares that view.

Offline Joeytrom

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2014, 06:32:40 PM »
1897 is the only flashback where everything lines up with the previous present time lead in story.

Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2014, 10:03:41 PM »
really???

I always thought it was originally supposed to be Quentin...and not Trask...who's skeleton is found in the closed off wing of the house. [snow_huh]
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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 12:22:52 AM »
really???

I always thought it was originally supposed to be Quentin...and not Trask...whose skeleton is found in the closed off wing of the house? [snow_huh]

 [spoiler]That was not a continuity mistake.   It was not some detail they misremembered or contradicted later.  Barnabas and Quentin discussed this right after Q had just been saved from the death he was "supposed" to have in 1897, the death that led to his haunting of Collinwood.   Barnabas said the future would be changed.  Either it would turn out that the skeleton had been someone else's all along, or the skeleton would turn out not to have been there at all.   As if Barnabas is some sort of temporal technical advisor, but never mind...  They then proceed to show that it was the former, after Greg Trask is walled up.   I don't think there was ever any confirmation of the assumption that the skeleton was Quentin's.  Didn't we as viewers just assume that?   I'm picturing Q and Beth having to share the afterlife with Trask's ghost, not being at all happy about it, and so ordering those bones to be taken the hell out of there.[/spoiler]
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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 12:38:21 AM »
MT, I agree with you that the writers always intended for Quentin's and Chris's stories to be linked. I really like it when they take such a long-range view of things. That's one of the reasons that the 1970 story line with its mysteries is one of my favorites, although I know that not everyone shares that view.

[spoiler]My problem with 1995-1970-1840 was that, yes they took the long view and planned it out loosely, but they seemed to do it so as to reuse in slightly altered form every plot device that they had already used that had been popular.   They altered them enough for it all to work, but some of it is just too transparently re-used.   In some cases they did things bigger and better, which was nice compensation.  Rather than just have a present-day haunting, they go into a doomed future.   That was great.  Gerard was a better menacing grimacer...   In 1970, Gerard DID destroy, he didn't just drive the family out.   And the 1840 characters went at each other more viciously.   Previously missed opportunities were seized on, like having unchained Barnabas be of-his-time for awhile...  and an Angelique straight from 1795 without future knowledge.  Whatever logic that goes against, it's still a great device.[/spoiler]
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Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 12:59:34 AM »
thanks.


I've only watched 1897 all the way through once many years ago and it was so cacophonous I forget the exact progression and a lot of the details of it.
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Offline Gothick

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 01:53:07 AM »
Well, the way I see it is [spoiler]the way the original narrative played out in 1968-69, it was indeed Quentin's skeleton that was found in his old room.  I think that when Beth's ghost tells Julia the events of the night when Quentin died, he did wind up making his way back into his bedroom.  Presumably Judith ordered it bricked up and closed the West Wing permanently to avoid any whisper of scandal, leaving word that Quentin had left town again for another of his "sojourns."  The idea of a skeleton in a forgotten room might have been a steal from the William Faulkner story, "A Rose for Emily"--an amazingly creepy tale.  Anyhow, the idea of Judith's revenge on Trask ending the way it did seems to have emerged from the question, "Then just whose skeleton did the kids find in the West Wing?"  Had Count Petofi's plan succeeded, it's conceivable that at one point, the "evil ghost" might have had the appearance of Quentin but actually been the spirit of Petofi.  What really doesn't make sense is that after Barnabas and Julia return, everyone in the family still retains the memory of Quentin's haunting, which technically never happened in the revised timeline.  I think Warren Oddson tried to come up with some bizarre theory to "explain" this--I've just come to accept that it's "more DS weirdness at work.[/spoiler]

But then,the fascination of this show is that each fan can have her or his own interpretation of what happens onscreen and it's open ended enough that any way you have of looking at certain things can be deemed valid.

G.

Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 02:52:56 AM »
I still think it had something to do with that fountain pen.
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Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2014, 02:59:36 AM »
what always annoyed/infuriated me in the aftermath of 1897 was...


[spoiler]while everyone did remember the Quentin hauntings of 68/69, and David and Amy were terrified the first time they saw Quentin(aka 'Grant Douglas')at the antique shop, within a couple months they carried on as if Quentin was an ordinary, everday member of the family who had always been around. it was very, very sloppy and inconsistent writing.[/spoiler] [snow_mad]
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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 03:17:06 AM »
[spoiler]A long post of mine on this just got obliterated.  Short version:  No, it was not sloppy writing.   It's just that any story of any kind involving changing history is impossible to tell logically, because of the paradoxes.   You see, not only should the 1969 Collins family not remember the hauntings that now have never happened.... but Barnabas and Julia should now have no awareness of them either.   No one should remember things that never happened. 

It was the hauntings which prompted Barnabas to use the I Ching.   If no haunting was happening to prompt that, Barnabas never changed history, so presto, the hauntings are back on again.   But if the hauntings are going on in 1968-9, Barnabas does go back to change things, so the hauntings now never happened again, so Barnabas never used the I Ching....

And so on and so on, back and forth, to infinity.  Before you call remembering Q's hauntings sloppy, what un-sloppy way could there have been to write it?   There's no logic whatsoever to having the present day family remember no hauntings, while Barnabas and Julia do.  That's no less sloppy or irrational.  The fact is, there's just no rational way to write it.  For the sake of the story, someone has to remember the stuff that never happened, and you can never make that make any sense.  [/spoiler]
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Offline michael c

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 04:45:03 AM »
my point was not about changing history...


[spoiler]it was simply that after 1897 the family carried on like Quentin was an ordinary member of the family who had always been around. and he wasn't.[/spoiler]

in that was very, very sloppy writing.
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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0642
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 05:02:19 AM »
Sorry michael, I missed that.   The family did seem to accept Quentin too readily just because the writers wanted him at Collinwood.   Then again, they did the same with Barnabas.  That family resemblance goes a long way...
"One can never go wrong with weapons and drinks as fashion accessories."-- the eminent and clearly quotable Dark Shadows fan and board mod known as Mysterious Benefactor