DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '03 II => Topic started by: Philippe Cordier on October 31, 2003, 10:01:55 PM
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I don't think this question is ever answered, but 1840 provides the most clues. Everything that has been said so far in these past few episodes implies that Angelique has had a continuous existence since the 1600s. It sounds as though Angelique, or Miranda du Val as she was actually named, had been a villager in the town where Judah Zachary had his coven, and that she was an ordinary girl who was swept up into the cult like many others -- something is said about the entire town being "corrupted"; I don't remember what the name of the town was. Later I think mention is made of her having been a serving girl at the time.
Amadeus Collins informs Miranda in 1692 that if she testifies against Judah Zachary, he will ensure that she gets safe passage out of the country.
This fits in with what we know of Angelique's past from 1795, i.e. that she lived in Martinique when she first met Barnabas.
The logical conclusion is that Miranda changed her name and identity and moved far away, like someone under the Witness Protection Program today.
Somehow in those intervening years, Angelique gained 1) immortality and 2) powers of witchcraft.
Regarding her longevity, Judah Zachary/Gerard says: "She is Miranda du Val" -- note that he does not say that she "was" Miranda, but that she "is" Miranda. He obviously regards her as having survived since 1692. There is no suggestion that she is reincarnated. "I found ways to survive -- perhaps she did too," he says. And at another point, JZ/Gerard addresses Angelique (though she's not present): "You have survived this long, but I will have the final satisfaction of destroying you."
It will be interesting to listen carefully for further clues to see how much more we can discover about Miranda's transformation into Angelique.
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Well, in the original 1795 story, Angelique's powers start out as very much the traditional Hedge Witch variety. She needs a lot more to cast her spells in this first story than is the case later on. I don't believe the Devil is ever mentioned by her, although of course Abby and the Rev think about him constantly--the sign of a really devoted servant (!).
In 1968, there's at least one scene there where CassAngelique is doing her thing (I believe it's the scene where she's killing Lang with her handy little voodoo doll), and she mentions conversationally that her powers come from "the Devil Himself." This notion plays out with the eventual scenes where Nicky and Ange visit Hell.
In 1897, Ange starts out as a more or less independent supernatural being, then reverts to more Devil talk as the storyline advances. There's a scene where she's casting one of her fire spells and she mentions that she's promised the Prince of Fire Quentin's soul.
just a few stray thoughts, grist for your mill.
G.
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It's so hard to say where it all began with girlfriend. And I think the writers pretty much re-did her origins with the 1840 storyline. Like so much of what happens on the show, I think when and where Angelique gained her powers is debatable.
Somebody else mentioned recently that in 1795 Countess DuPres mentions having known Angelique as an "uninteresting" girl. Around that same time, (IIRC), something was also mentioned about Ange's mother as a village wise woman or some such. If this were all true, it lends more the theory that Angelique was the reincarnation of Miranda. Maybe Gerard/Judah could see through the flesh to her soul (if she still had one ;) ), and saw this was the same girl who had betrayed him in 1692.
Then again, maybe Angelique was able to cast some kind of spell over the DuPres to make them think they had known her as a young 'un, and that they had known her mom. The problem with this is, if she was successful enough as a witch to pull off that kind of a spell, why was she so inept with the spells we see her casting early in the 1795 storyline? It's like she's just beginning, when she causes Barnabas to choke, or when she zaps Joshua into a cat - she seems surprised at her own strength. This makes me wonder how she can have been a 125 year old witch at this point.
Of course too, the theory that Angelique was just Miranda under a different name seems strange when you consider that in 1796 she was working as a servant. Maybe this was part of some greater plan on her part, but that doesn't seem plausible to me. However, if she'd really pissed off the Devil, maybe that was her punishment - to be thrown into a different time, under a different identity, and to be forced to work as a servant as payback for her part in betraying Satan's homeboy Judah Zachary.
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:) Angelique was Miranda Duval reincarnated. She did have the full life as the girl Angelique Bouchard, rather than just come back womanly like we are used to.
:) Yes, I'm the same poster who said Vicki was the daughter of Elizabeth Collins!
:) So, you can say these are just my humble observations!
:) Anyway, I get my information from pretty reliable sources.
:) By the way, stay tuned for Lara's new book for more in this vein!
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Im leaning more towards the theory of reincarnation here because if Miranda had really been a witch for all those years Im sure she would have been a real pro at it by the time she reached 1795 and landed in Collinwood.
IMO, the way I see it is that when Miranda betrayed Judah in the 1600's all of her powers were probably taken away from her as punishment for this act. Then, somewhere along the line in that lifetime she most likely made a pact with the master of darkness himself that if he gave her back her powers she'd promise to serve only him for all eternity. This was done probably later on in her life and her wish was granted to her in her next lifetime, which was Angelique. I also believe that once given back her powers she was also given back her old life's memory as a reminder of her betrayal in the past.
I also find it strange that Gerard/Judah should mention that he himself had survived all these years. I was under the impression that he had just arrived now when Desmond found his head and bought it back to Collinwood. Otherwise, why wouldn't he have tried to destroy the Collins family in 1795 or at some other earlier date? And if he did survive somehow, I don't think he can compare it to Miranda/Angelique's survival because she at least had a living body to live in.
Cassandra
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IMO, the way I see it is that when Miranda betrayed Judah in the 1600s all of her powers were probably taken away from her as punishment for this act. Then, somewhere along the line in that lifetime she most likely made a pact with the master of darkness himself that if he gave her back her powers she'd promise to serve only him for all eternity. This was done probably later on in her life and her wish was granted to her in her next lifetime, which was Angelique. I also believe that once given back her powers she was also given back her old life's memory as a reminder of her betrayal in the past.
This is a sensible theory, and it would also lend credence to Angelique's origin as written in Lara's Angelique's Descent, which discards the Miranda story altogether. Given the show's propensity for reincarnated characters, this probably offers the most logical and internally consistent explanation (as if internal consistency is ever much of a determining factor).
--Mark
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;D I asked Lara about it & this is exactly her thinking. She was going to address the Miranda/Angelique relationship and keep it consistant with the show. This was awhile back, so I don't know if she changed direction. I don't think so, tho. Mark, Anne Rice is gona be at Vroman's 11-7... I wish you would write DS books at the rate she writes those Vampire Chronicles!
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Mark, Anne Rice is gona be at Vroman's 11-7... I wish you would write DS books at the rate she writes those Vampire Chronicles!
If the series were being continued as originally planned, I'd be writing more of them than people would ever want to read. ;)
--Mark
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I would be happy to buy the reincarnation theory if there were evidence to back it up -- in the dialogue, voiceovers, whatever. As it stands, it seems to be a theory that fans have developed to explain what is never made clear, and in fact the evidence seems to argue against it. I agree that the theory would solve the question, but I need evidence, and the series does not provide that.
By contrast, there is no question regarding the reincarnations in the movie Night of Dark Shadows. Quentin is the reincarnation of Charles, etc., and most of the characters are shown to be reincarnations. Reincarnation is also made explicitly clear at other times within the DS series, so if reincarnation is what is intended here, why didn't the writers simply say so? For some reason they did not, and the logical conclusion would be that this was because reincarnation was not intended.
Longtime posters may remember that I asked Lara Parker during a forum at the last WTC festival if she intended to address this issue in her next book, and she assured us that she was aware of the conflict and would be dealing with it.
I agree with CB that the writers re-did Angelique's origins with 1840, but they obviously didn't dot the i's and cross the t's. Did they deliberately want keep us guessing?
I think Countess du Pres's comment in 1795 can be explained (if we're going to develop theories) without resorting to Angelique casting spells over everyone, which would seem rather pointless. Angelique may simply have presented herself as a young girl, unchanged from her days as a young girl in the 1692 colonies, if she had somehow gained immortality not long after that. The countess says "I knew her when she was an uninteresting child." She doesn't specify an age, and, as an older woman condescending toward a servant, she could easily refer to a 17- or 18-year-old Angelique as a "child." The countess's other comment about knowing Angelique's mother could also be explained. Perhaps Miranda's mother was involved in the Judah Zachary cult, too, and had knowledge of witchcraft. Regardless, Mrs. Du Val could very well have traveled with Miranda out of the country, to Martinique. Mother and daughter could have continued their studies of the dark arts together.
Being a practioner of witchcraft does not necessarily result in one obtaining an exhaulted social status. In fact, historically "witches" were usually poor women. So I have no problem with Angelique being only a servant in Martinique.
Cassandra, I like your theory, but think it could easily apply to the scenario as I've outlined it without resorting to her then dying and reincarnating.
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Regarding Lara Parker's plans for her next book, I forgot to say that while it's understandable that we anxiously await what she has to say on the Miranda/Angelique business, what she does decide is basically her own ideas. What I'm interested in is the original intent of the writers/producers.
In the introduction (or afterward, I forget which) to "Angelique's Descent," Ms. Parker says that she consulted with one or two of the writers of the 1795 period, but that no one remembered or knew how Angelique had become a witch. Completely ignoring the 1840 storyline (was it also forgotten by DCP?), Ms. Parker then felt free to come up with her own story.
And while I admire the philosophical issues she grapples with in the novel, and much of the writing, I have to say that I don't accept much of Ms. Parker's story about Angelique as being in any way canonical.
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I disagree with the statements made here that Miranda couldn't have had a continuous existence as Angelique or else she would have been a better witch by 1795.
How fast does a witch progress? What is the extent of the powers she, or any witch, is capable of? The limitations? Who were her teachers? Did she study continuously for 100 years? Was she in Martinique during the entire time, or might she have gone elsewhere to make here living first(e.g., Europe)? At what point might she have become allied with Satan? There are too many unknowns involved here, IMO, to make a generalization like "she would have been a better witch."
I'd say her powers were pretty damn impressive -- and scary -- when she arrived at Collinwood in 1795.
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Well, Vlad, last time I watched the episodes that involved the first spell we see Ange casting--on Barn's Rev War toy soldier--I'm afraid I laughed when the poor dear couldn't get the knot undone when she was trying to reverse the spell.
Tying knots is very much Craft 101. Then there's her notorious difficulty with Basic Banishment. She raises a ghost (Jeremiah) to perform a simple task and then can't rid of him? In her defense, the ghost eventually goes away when the writers can't think of what to do next with him, but it reflects very badly on her skill level at this point.
I actually think it makes the story more interesting when Ange is barely competent and you see her trying hard to learn from her own mistakes. Later on, when she becomes "Super Witch," it's not so interesting. Of course, even at the height of her powers on the show, she was never capable of pulling some of the feats ascribed to her by some fan writers, such as the role Warren Oddson gives her in his articles in the DS Concordances published by Kathleen Resch.
In 1968, Cassandra seems a lot more powerful, confident, and assured in her Craft than 1795 did. Her problem then is her tendency to indulge her own sadism--watch 'em twist in the wind when she could be getting the job done. That is what leads to her eventual downfall, although it could be argued as well that the Dream Curse was an unnecessarily clumsy, over-involved piece of spellcraft. It's hard to tell with that whether she was motivated by the desire to see people like Maggie and Mrs. Johnson suffer on the way to achieving her goal, or whether she simply did not know any better, quicker way of getting the job done.
G.
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I think Countess du Pres's comment in 1795 can be explained (if we're going to develop theories) without resorting to Angelique casting spells over everyone, which would seem rather pointless. Angelique may simply have presented herself as a young girl, unchanged from her days as a young girl in the 1692 colonies, if she had somehow gained immortality not long after that. The countess says "I knew her when she was an uninteresting child." She doesn't specify an age, and, as an older woman condescending toward a servant, she could easily refer to a 17- or 18-year-old Angelique as a "child."
Hi Vlad,
I cited that example in offering evidence against the Angelique-is-Miranda theory in the Angie's Logic topic, but there were other instances as well-- it was stated on numerable occasions that Josette and Angelique grew up together. And, when Nicholas took away all of Cassandra's powers in 1968, he taunts her by first telling her that she "was born in Martinqique in the year 1774..." All of this made sense at that point in the DS story, yet none of it does now that we're in 1840.
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???) I'm not up on reincarnation, but I think the DS storylines support it. It is implicit, if you look at the series as a whole. I thought reincarnation was when the soul comes back & lives again from birth, in another body. So Miranda Duvall is the witch Angelique in an earlier incarnation. Angelique Bouchard is Miranda's reincarnation. The other forms of Angelique (Cassandra, Valerie, etc are not reincarnations. I think this was Lara's (and the writers') thinking. The 1692 story tells the origin of Angelique -- she got her powers when she was Miranda.
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Tying knots is very much Craft 101. Then there's her notorious difficulty with Basic Banishment. She raises a ghost (Jeremiah) to perform a simple task and then can't rid of him? In her defense, the ghost eventually goes away when the writers can't think of what to do next with him, but it reflects very badly on her skill level at this point
I know nothing of tying knots, and I hadn't thought much of the implications of Angelique being limited in her ability to control forces greater than herself in 1795. To those not versed in the Craft, which would include everyone else at Collinwood, the fact that Angelique -- or anyone -- could raise the dead would evince rather frightening supernatural powers. As would the ability of a mere mortal to turn another person into an animal (Jermiah the cat ;D ). Her vampire curse worked pretty well too, not to mention her courtroom resurrection experience -- so on balance, again my untutored impression is that Angelique has powers to be reckoned with.
I agree that Cassandra is an even more powerful and frightening figure, although in the past I've attributed that more to her personality (and Lara Parker's skills as an actress) than the level of her witchcraft.
But I'll be sure to keep your comments in mind if I ever view the series a third time! :D
Midnite wrote:
I cited that example in offering evidence against the Angelique-is-Miranda theory in the Angie's Logic topic, but there were other instances as well-- it was stated on numerable occasions that Josette and Angelique grew up together. And, when Nicholas took away all of Cassandra's powers in 1968, he taunts her by first telling her that she "was born in Martinqique in the year 1774..." All of this made sense at that point in the DS story, yet none of it does now that we're in 1840.
I apologize if I'm repeating a discussion that was so recently held. I had looked at that thread when it was new, but hadn't followed it and therefore missed your post and others on the topic.
I had forgotten the Nicholas Blair comment about Angelique being born in Martinique, so that's a good point. Yet since 1840 comes later and seems to be the "newest" view of what we are to know about Angelique, I wonder if we as viewers are meant to "forget" some things that were mentioned some months (or even years) previously. I think the writers/producers were counting on that. Which should take precedence, then, the earlier understanding of Angelique's past, or the updated, later version meant to replace (or correct) it?
My hope is to harmonize the two as much as possible so we're not left with such an either/or choice.
I have to confess that I do not remember a single instance in the series itself where it is said that Angelique and Josette grew up together. I know this is the view taken by Marcy Robin and Kathleen Resch in their excellent "Island of Ghosts," as well as picked up by Ms. Parker in her novel. It's possible that I could have missed these lines on the show somewhere along the way, but are you able to pinpoint specific episodes?
If memory serves correct (my own "annotated" copy of the Pomegranate Press episode guide being unavailble to me), there are further comments still to be made in 1840 that seem to continue in the vein as those I've cited, i.e. indicating that Miranda did not die and reincarnate but continued in her existence under a new identity (perhaps aided by witchery) as Angelique. Since I think there's more yet that will be said regarding this, that's why I mentioned in my initial post that we should keep our ears open! :-X
Regarding the "she had 100 years to improve herself and therefore couldn't have still been a servant" argument, again, we don't know what might have happened to her or how she may have been occupied during this time. Are we to understand that if any one of us lives long enough, we'll be a great success? (Guess I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that I have a long life ahead of me, because I sure haven't come close!) Accepting the 1840 version as replacing any possible contradictory comments in earlier storylines, I imagine her as possibly emigrating to Europe, probably France, probably with her mother, before eventually moving to the French possession of Martinique. 17th century France (especially in aristocratic circles) was rife with mystics and occultists, and would have been just the environment for Miranda ... now adopting the French name Angelique ... to reacquaint herself with the Dark Arts she had foresworn (temporarily). Rags-to-riches stories are fun, but if we take a more realistic approach, it would be quite a step up for a servant girl from the backwoods American colonies to become a servant girl at, say, Versailles, waiting upon the nobility, and being in the midst of occultist courtiers and mages. The vast majority of people in centuries before our own lived quite humble lives; although being a servant would be low on the social scale, very few people lived artistocratic lives, and it's not unrealistic to think that while Angelique may have improved her situation and expanded her experience, she could still have remained, in essence, a servant. These are just my creative imaginings to explain things and make sense of things for myself ...
Wes's comments make sense, and I agree that what he says fits in with DS as a whole ... but I still think that adopting the reincarnation view here requires some inference and guesswork on the part of the viewer that is contradicated by specific 1840 dialogue
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Everyone has such interesting comments here and I love hearing all the different opinons on this subject.
IMO, Im still leaning towards the reincarnation theory though because I had always believed that Angelique from 1795 was nothing more than a mortal woman who practiced witchcraft. It's true yes that she had some remarkable powers but IMO her best powers didn't come through until after she had died when Barnabas had strangled her in the Masoleum room. One feat she was able to accomplish after being killed was the ability to "appear" and "disappear" at will. She certainly couldn't do this before as Im sure it would have come in mighty handy for her when she was in that Masoleum room with Barnabas.
All this would lead me to believe that Angelique from 1795 was mortal. Now, IMO, had she have been the same Miranda from the 1600's she would have had to have been immortal to be able to live that long, and yet she wasn't immortal as shown in 1795. Once she had died however, she was able to accomplish so many other different supernatural things as shown in all the other storylines in which she appeared in. Even Judah wasn't able to accomplish anything until after he had found a host body to possess and we are led to believe that he is way more powerful than she is.
It's been so long since I've watched this part of the story so it's quite possible that Angelique herself can lend some more insight into this question later on in the storyline.
Cassandra
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Have to say, I'm still down with the reincarnation theory, too. It just makes more sense to me somehow. And while there does appear to be some evidence from the show that supports Miranda actually living all those years between 1692 and 1795, there also seems to be at least the implication that Angelique was Miranda's reincarnation. And although 1840 came later in the series, that doesn't mean what was established in that timeline was any more or less valid than what was said earlier on the show.
The Countess' comments that she had known Angelique as a young girl, and known her mother too just don't jibe with the Miranda-is-Angelique theory, IMHO. If you believe that the Countess' memory hadn't been magically altered, it seems a stretch to think that Natalie would make a distiction between Angelique at age 21 or so in 1795, and Angelique in say, 1792 when she would have been 17 or 18. That's only three years, yet what Natalie said implies that she's known Angelique for longer than that. Besides, in the 18th century, wouldn't one be considered a woman, not a young girl at 17 or 18?
This kind of reminds me of the "is Vicki Liz's daughter?" thread a few weeks back. It was just never made clear (canonically speaking) what the truth was. This leaves it all up to us as the fans to speculate and discuss. Like Cassandra said above, it's super interesting to hear all the theories. Each person can decide what they think, and that becomes the truth for them - which is a bit like life, I guess.
I did wonder if anyone knew this: although Miranda was clearly part of Judah's coven, was it stated for sure that she had any supernatural powers in 1692? If there wasn't any reincarnation, maybe Miranda spent 100 years acquiring powers and/or selling her soul. And whatever became of her mysterious, theoretical mother Mrs. Duval?
I guess it's totally up for grabs at this point! :-
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I did wonder if anyone knew this: although Miranda was clearly part of Judah's coven, was it stated for sure that she had any supernatural powers in 1692? If there wasn't any reincarnation, maybe Miranda spent 100 years acquiring powers and/or selling her soul.
Yes, it was. Since the following dialogue hasn't yet aired during the current run, it's enclosed in spoiler space.
#1196
[spoiler]GERARD/JUDAH: I gave you powers. I gave you powers, my dear, when I first met you. You were so young and a sweet girl and I taught you everything.
VALERIE/MIRANDA: But I've learned more since.
GERARD/JUDAH: I don't think so...
later...
GERARD/JUDAH: I, Judah Zachery, take away the powers I once bestowed upon you and return you to the human state from whence you came. Let it be done![/spoiler]
#1197
[spoiler]VALERIE to JUDAH: You bewitched me and I remained a witch until last night when you took away the powers that you had given me.[/spoiler]
I completely agree with wes that reincarnation is a recurrent theme on DS, and with wes and others that this theory would make sense, especially in light of previous references. But there was no mention made of reincarnation in regard to Valerie/Miranda-- it was never stated-- and I feel that the writers never even intimated it. And the dialogue in ep. #1173, when Valerie tells Julia about her life as Miranda, and in #1197, when Valerie tells Judge Vail that she knew Judah Zachery intimately, lead me to believe that what was being potrayed was an Angelique that had a continuous existence between 1692 and 1840. And THAT, along with the fact that she would even be on Earth in 1840, chucks Angelique's previous history right out the [tower room] window.
I guess it's totally up for grabs at this point! :-
Yeah, lucky for us! ;)
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Cool, Midnite. I had forgotten about the info you pointed out. Starting to feel swayed to the Miranda-is-Angelique camp, at least in terms of the reality set forth in 1840. You do have to wonder though, because it does seem contradictory to what came before. Still, that's not the first time (or, I would imagine the last time) that the Dark Shadows writers would step all over the continuity of the show.
Another theory can still be advanced. With all this time jumping and the changing of history, it's arguable that the 1840 Barnabas and Julia visit is some kind of parallel time. In fact, it has to be a parallel version of history when compared to the 1970 they left behind. The Roxanne of 1970 was a vampire. In the 1840 in which Barnabas and Julia are involved, Roxanne is destroyed, so she cannot have existed in 1970. Yet both of them knew her in 1970, so they must have come from a parallel version of that year, or this must not be the original 1840. Wouldn't they create a parallel universe by changing history?
And, more apropos the subject of this thread:
[spoiler]This opens up the possibility that the Angelique they meet in 1840 is NOT the one they've met at any other time. In fact, given what happens with her later in the storyline she CAN'T be the same woman. I mean, the stuff with Cassandra and the Leviathans and in 1897, Barnabas and Julia (and later Stokes) remember that, so as far as they're concerned it really happened. But this Angelique, we know will never experience those things with them, so this must be some kind of parallel time, right? I mean somewhere, in some reality, there must still be an Angelique who lived on after 1840 in order for her to show up at Collinwood again in 1897, 1968 & 1970.[/spoiler]
The possibilities are really mind-boggling, and I've managed to confuse myself. Wait, should this be a new topic? :P
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along with the fact that she would even be on Earth in 1840, chucks Angelique's previous history right out the [tower room] window.
I could be completely off here because I haven't watched DS (except for a few special episodes here and there) since 1997, and with so much story it's nearly impossible to remember it all in detail, but I began to wonder: Did we ever learn with absolute certainty that Nicholas and Angelique hooked up in 1796 and she went directly from 1796 to 1968 and her Cassandra persona? Or is this, like so many other things, something we've all generally assumed?
As we know, prior to the 1840 storyline Angelique's timeline goes from 1795/96 to 1968, where she's first Cassandra and then Angelique the vamp; she betrays Nicholas and is sent by Diablos back to 1796, where Ben torches her in the tower room; Quentin and Evan summon her to 1897; she remains flitting about the world doing whatever until she surfaces on Little Windward Island as Mrs. Sky Runson in 1970; and from there we have no idea where she might have gone because she's simply never seen again in the present after the conclusion of Leviathans.
However, if there's any possibility that Angelique and Nicholas didn't meet up until some point after 1840, the idea that she continued to make pilgrimages to the mausoleum between 1796 and 1840 wouldn't actually alter her timeline in any way. And it would make perfect sense that in 1840 she has no knowledge of the future because so far as she's concerned none of the events that we've seen taken place (1968/banishment to 1796/1897/1970) have happened for her yet.
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There is a line of dialogue in Cassandra's very first episode in 1968 where she is talking to Barn's portrait and she informs him that she would never have found out that he had escaped her curse, if it had not been for Victoria Winters' time trip to 1795.
That's really all the info we are given. It seems to be implied that Ange is working through a noncorporeal form, first through her portrait, then possessing Roger, until she (we presume from dialogue many weeks later between Cass and Nicky) she makes a "bargain" with Nicholas and Diabolos/Balberith and is able to return in flesh form as Cassandra. I also recall a line or two about how much Cassandra is enjoying being in a body again--it may have been one of Nicholas' comments about why she is so obviously dragging her feet.
FWIW, I recall that at the time of the original b'cast, I simply accepted that the Angelique who appeared in 1840 was somehow the "original" Angelique who lacked knowledge of the future because for her, it simply had not happened yet. I was never one of those who kept DS diaries, so a lot of the inconsistencies I notice watching it on VHS as an adult went right over my head at the time.
G.
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I began to wonder: Did we ever learn with absolute certainty that Nicholas and Angelique hooked up in 1796 and she went directly from 1796 to 1968 and her Cassandra persona? Or is this, like so many other things, something we've all generally assumed?
Hmmm. The last we saw of Angelique in the 1795 story, she was a ghost haunting Ben and Vicki until the latter was hanged. Yes, it's only assumed that she went directly to 1968 to become Cassandra but if she had instead hung around wherever it is that ghosts hang out, I don't get how she could interrrupt her travels every year to return to Collinsport to check on Barnabas' coffin if she wasn't corporeal. Anybody?
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if she had instead hung around wherever it is that ghosts hang out, I don't get how she could interrrupt her travels every year to return to Collinsport to check on Barnabas' coffin if she wasn't corporeal.
Well, we know Angelique could turn corporeal when the need arose because she was certainly corporeal when she made her surprise appearance at Vicki's trial. Of course, that was only for a limited time. But perhaps she eventually learned had to stay corporeal. Nicholas may have been, for whatever reason(s), unable to send Cassandra in corporeal form to 1968, so that may be why she had to first arrive in the form of Angelique's portrait.
What is unfortunate is that Angelique's history with Laszlo was so underdeveloped. If we'd been given more info about their time together, perhaps they'd be no need to speculate..But then, perhaps the writers intentionally left us with little info because either they didn't want to address the matter themselves, or they wanted the audience to come up with its own explanation. ;)
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:) By the way, stay tuned for Lara's new book for more in this vein!
I'm really looking forward to the new book!! Any word yet on when it's being released? Lara Parker mentioned it (I think) at the 2000 LA DS Fest. The theme will have something to do with the Salem witch trials, teenagers from the 1960's. Of course :-* Barnabas will be in it. [blackbat]
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8) The new Lara Parker DS novel is supposed to be out in 2004. I would think would have been a good idea to have in on the shelves this Christmas, though.
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But who will the publisher be? surely not HarperCollins.
G.
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The last I heard -- and this was a long while back -- that Tor Books would be putting it out as a trade paperback. Beyond that, though, they don't plan any further DS books; or if they do, they want to have them written only by the stars of the show. While I think Lara has a good thing going, as a writer, I can't say I'm thrilled by the prospect of being pushed out of the roster by someone who has no prior track record -as- a writer.
However, the Tor deal may or may not still be in the bargain. Things may have changed in recent months.
--Mark
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Mark, you must want to scream every time you walk into a bookstore and see books "written" by any and everyone other than an actual writer. Pop stars, law enforcement people, butlers, soldiers,.....anyone can cut a book deal...except someone who's actually written a book! >:(
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I have to confess that I do not remember a single instance in the series itself where it is said that Angelique and Josette grew up together. I know this is the view taken by Marcy Robin and Kathleen Resch in their excellent "Island of Ghosts," as well as picked up by Ms. Parker in her novel. It's possible that I could have missed these lines on the show somewhere along the way, but are you able to pinpoint specific episodes?
My first reaction to your request-- ACK!
But I was home with the flu today and pretty useless to do much else, so I managed to pinpoint several, but not all, the scenes. I think you can get a good enough idea from these, however, that Josette and an orphaned Angelique grew up close together despite their different stations-- perhaps much, much too close.
#371 - Angelique has caused Barnabas to choke but feigns concern as she hugs Josette and offers to pray with her. She later suggests the medal of St. Pierre in order to send Josette away so that she can be alone with Barnabas to torment him some more.
#373 - Angelique tries on Josette's Parisian-made hat and tells Ben, "She'll never miss it. She's got lots."
#374 - Ben chastises Angelique for helping herself to Josette's perfume, and she replies, "Why not? I've worn her clothes, stolen her suitors."
#380 - When Josette turns down her servant's wedding gift, Natalie reminds her, "Angelique has served you well."
#387 - Joshua informs Trask that Angelique "belongs to the duPres family."
The interrogation follows:
TRASK: Have you been baptized?
ANGELIQUE: No sir.
TRASK: Why not?
ANGELIQUE: My mother and father died when I was very young.
TRASK: Why haven't the duPres family had you baptized?
ANGELIQUE: I don't know sir.
TRASK: I think you do know!
#393 - Naomi and Natalie are trying to guess the identity of the witch. Naomi asks, "What about Angelique?" and Natalie replies, "It would make her more interesting. But I think no. I've known her ever since she was an uninteresting child."
Later¢â‚¬¦
Angelique tells Josette that Barnabas proposed to her. Stunned, Josette tells her to stop packing because there's no need for her to care for her any longer.
#403 - Barnabas is furious with Angelique for what she did to Jeremiah, Sarah, and Josette; regarding the latter, she tells him, "I didn't want it to be so. I was so sure I could change it. I hated her. For once, I would have something that belonged to her."
#443 - Peter asks Natalie what Angelique knew about witchcraft. She answers, "Nearly everyone on the island knows something about it. I never paid very much attention to her. I hired her because she was very young and I felt sorry for her. Her mother was not, shall we put it kindly, respectable. She had a reputation for being a healer, she used herbs¢â‚¬¦ (PETER: And potions?) Yes. Angelique was embarrassed by that though she and her mother were very close."
M.
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I'm sorry you've been sick with the flu, Midnite. Hope you feel better soon. :)
..............
I have to say that I'm baffled by the majority of the references you've painstakingly detailed. I've seen/heard all of these scenes in two viewings now, and except for the "uninteresting child" quote (which I've discussed), I don't see how the other references would lead viewers to conclude that Angelique grew up with Josette from childhood. That thought never occurred to me in my two viewings of the 1795 storyline.
Could the difference in our interpretations be influenced perhaps by exposure to outside information, i.e. forum discussions, fan fiction, etc.? To me most of the things you quote suggest that Angelique had been in service to the DuPres family for an unspecified amount of time -- perhaps a couple of years -- enough time to know Josette's wardrobe, beaux, etc., and time enough for them to form a bond (albeit a deceitful one on Angelique's part). All of that could conceivably have occurred in less than a year's time (I'm reminded of a true story of a female scam artist I saw on "Unsolved Mysteries," who managed to gain the confidence and intimate trust of other women in an amazingly short period of time, then promptly split with their bank accounts, jewels, etc. The victims all said they felt this woman was the closest person in their lives, etc., and all this usually happened within 6 mos.!)
Since Angelique's tearful, on-her-knees "performance" for the Rev. Trask contradicts even Countess du Pres' remarks concerning Angelique's mother, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in what Angelique tells him. Her whole performance is a lie, and her presentation of herself as possibly an orphan (which is where I assume that you are getting that idea) seems more like a bid to elicit a sympathetic reaction from Trask than a factual recounting of her autobiography.
Neither Countess du Pres nor anyone else says that Angelique was an orphan when she was hired into the DuPres household. Entering into service with a family at a young age does not imply that she was an orphaned child. Plenty of families in European and American history have sent their children to work.
In Thursday's episode, Angelique told her gypsy servant that immediately after testifying against Judah Zachary, she had been granted "safe passage out of the country." I think we are to see Miranda in 1692 as a fairly young girl, a teenager. Leaving the American colonies as a young girl in 1692 and next appearing as a young girl in Martinique in the 1790s suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary. I find it tempting to think that Angelique joined the Du Pres household exactly 100 years after she left Maine, i.e. in 1692, appearing the same age as she did when she had gained the secret of eternal life ... let's say she was 17, for the sake of argument. At that point she may somehow have gracefully aged naturally during her say, three years of service with the family, to her present young womanhood. Speculation? Interpretation? Maybe ... but so are the scenarios set forth by Ms. Resch and Ms. Robin, et al. My version would fit the facts as well as other interpretations, but have the advantage of harmonizing the 1840 storyline which other interpreations conveniently ignore.
An earlier poster didn't seem to understand why I would lend more weight to this later storyline's version of events, and I don't know what more to say without repeating myself. The DS storylines progressed and changed, and when one version of events is later substituted for an earlier version (think of the early Collins ancestors and history referred to in the first few months of the series that we clearly must "forget" later) I think we're meant to accept the later version.
Since so many people are willing to accept fan fiction, statements in interviews, skits, and novels written decades after the show, I don't understand the problem with going back to the show itself to see how the writers at the time either resolved things or the state of events that they finally left us with on the show itself. What I don't understand is the vast majority of fandom (at least those expressing themselves on this forum) just ignoring what we're told in 1840. It's as if 1840, clearly a major storyline within the series, holds no weight. Even the series writers Lara Parker consulted with (I don't have the book with me so I don't remember which ones she consulted) were seemed unaware of the 1840 storyline events. That's what I don't understand.
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Besides, in the 18th century, wouldn't one be considered a woman, not a young girl at 17 or 18?
A young woman, even in her 20s, in the position of a serving girl, would commonly be referred to as a "girl."
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I'm sorry you've been sick with the flu, Midnite. Hope you feel better soon. :)
Thanks.
Could the difference in interpretations be influenced perhaps by exposure to outside information, fan interpretations, etc.?
If you mean me, then no. I read the books you mentioned but I'm not confusing them, I promise. :)
To me most of the things you quote suggest that Angelique had been in service to the DuPres family for an unspecified amount of time -- perhaps a couple of years -- enough time to know Josette's wardrobe, beaux, etc.
Like you said-- different interpretations. I think the animosity that built within Angelique isn't from a mere couple of years-- she told Barnabas she HATED Josette-- but that's my opinion. We also seem to disagree on the significance of a few adjectives (child and very young) and I can live with that.
Since Angelique's tearful, on-her-knees "performance" for the Rev. Trask contradicts even Countess de Pres' remarks concerning Angelique's mother, I wouldn't put a lot of trust in what Angelique tells him. Her whole performance is a lie, and her presentation of herself as possibly an orphan (which is where I assume that you are getting that idea) seems more like a bid to elicit a sympathetic reaction from Trask than a factual autobiography
I knew you were going to say that. ;) I do put stock in that part of what was said to Trask. Angelique knew perfectly well what was at stake (why else would she have painstakingly hidden her witchery from anyone not under her power?), and it wouldn't bode well for her if Trask spoke to the duPres family about her a second time and found a discrepancy in her personal history. I also don't see how it contradicts Grayson's dialogue.
Neither Countess du Pres nor anyone else says that Angelique was an orphan when she was hired into the DuPres household. Entering into service with a family at a young age does not imply that she was an orphaned child.
Yes, the word orphan was never used to describe Angelique on the series, but Natalie did speak of her mother in past tense.
Anyway, I think that what Nicholas Blair said to Cassandra later in the story (that she was born in 1774) holds more weight in the Miranda/Valerie/Angelique discussion than all the clues that we have about Angelique from 1795 put together.
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Anyway, I think that what Nicholas Blair said to Cassandra later in the story (that she was born in 1774) holds more weight in the Miranda/Valerie/Angelique discussion than all the clues that we we have about Angelique from 1795 put together.
I agree with you -- this is a clear, unambiguous statement ... a specific date is given, so it doesn't seem open to various interpretations.
The quote, as you say, is from the later Cassandra storyline. As such, it would seem to be a clarifying point on the writers' part, looking back at previous information from an earlier storyline and providing a sort of summarizing statement. As such, we could then ignore previous inconsistencies within a previous storyline and accept this later "definitive" statement.
That is, until a later reappraisal is made, and a new "definitive" version is given. As I see it, 1840 is the last storyline to address the matter within the "Dark Shadows" canon (i.e., the original TV series) ... and therefore I give the 1840 version precedence over previously given information (when there are contradictions), accepting it as the "latest thinking " -- the final "official word" or version of events. Of course, the 1840 version of events might have been reappraised had the series continued. (One would hope that, had that happened, an attempt would then have been made to iron out the contradictions rather than presenting yet another alternative ...).
Since that didn't happen, I accept the last version we are given. I admit, though, that 1840 does not spell out exactly what happened, specific dates, etc.
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Whoa! All this is new since I first read the post...
In Thursday's episode, Angelique told her gypsy servant that immediately after testifying against Judah Zachary, she had been granted "safe passage out of the country." I think we are to see Miranda in 1692 as a fairly young girl, a teenager. Leaving the American colonies as a young girl in 1692 and next appearing as a young girl in Martinique in the 1790s suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary. I find it tempting to think that Angelique joined the Du Pres household exactly 100 years after she left Maine, i.e. in 1692, appearing the same age as she did when she had gained the secret of eternal life ... let's say she was 17, for the sake of argument. At that point she may somehow have gracefully aged naturally during her say, three years of service with the family, to her present young womanhood.
But Angelique died in 1796. She had powers, yes, but was mortal.
Speculation? Interpretation? Maybe ... but so are the scenarios set forth by Ms. Resch and Ms. Robin, et al. My version would fit the facts as well as other interpretations, but have the advantage of harmonizing the 1840 storyline which other interpreations conveniently ignore.
I thought you'd read Warren Oddsson's essay.
An earlier poster didn't seem to understand why I would lend more weight to this later storyline's version of events, and I don't know what more to say without repeating myself. The DS storylines progressed and changed, and when one version of events is later substituted for an earlier version (think of the early Collins ancestors and history referred to in the first few months of the series that we clearly must "forget" later) I think we're meant to accept the later version.
I think you give the writers too much credit. Angelique's previous history consistently made sense, then we jumped to 1840 and it's as if they stopped caring about what came before. And for me, that includes how her story concludes.
Since so many people are willing to accept fan fiction, statements in interviews, skits, and novels written decades after the show, I don't understand the problem with going back to the show itself to see how the writers at the time either resolved things or the state of events that they finally left us with on the show itself. What I don't understand is the vast majority of fandom (at least those expressing themselves on this forum) just ignoring what we're told in 1840. It's as if 1840, clearly a major storyline within the series, holds no weight. Even the series writers Lara Parker consulted with (I don't have the book with me so I don't remember which ones she consulted) were seemed unaware of the 1840 storyline events. That's what I don't understand.
:-X
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I hope my argumentative tone doesn't seem like I'm bashing our fabulous monitor here (especially when she's been sick! :( )... (I really do appreciate all the time you took to view those episodes, Midnite ... hopefully you're much better now. :) )
Nevertheless, I'll proceed with my contrariness ...
But first, I have an accurate quote that I'm afraid I only paraphrased earlier -- I enclosed it in quotes because I thought it was verbatim, but I re-watched the scene and found I had one word wrong. Anyway, here's the entire quote of what Angelique says:
"Shortly after the trial of Judah Zachary in 1692, I was given safe conduct out of the country, and Judah was beheaded."
BTW, in the same paragraph, I meant to say "1792", not "1692." :)
... suggests to me that soon after leaving the country Angelique either made a pact with the devil who granted her eternal life, or, better -- as some later 1840 dialogue suggests, she may already have learned the secrets of eternal existence -- or was able to deduce them -- from the occult knowledge she had learned from Judah Zachary.
But Angelique died in 1796. She had powers, yes, but was mortal.
Hmmm, you have a point there. But to continue in my argumentative mode ... Angelique did resurrect fairly soon after her 1795 death (in the courtroom scene to testify against Victoria Winters), so I'm not so sure that she wasn't immortal to start with. True, she seemed to die when Barnabas strangled her in the tomb ... but that just makes us think she's finished/defeated/dead. She doesn't die and come back as a ghost, which is what we'd expect to happen if she were an ordinary mortal -- instead, she re-appears in a corporeal, yet supernatural, form. This suggests to me that she may have been immortal all along, or at least was in some state where she was primed to pop back from the dead contrary to the ordinary laws of physics ...
I thought you'd read Warren Oddsson's essay.
Sorry, I don't understand what this means. I'm not familiar with the essay you mention ...
:-X
Hmmm, how am I to interpret that last (visual) comment? I have had a feeling from comments made by various posters that many viewers go with the earlier version of Angelique (1795) because they like that storyline better. It seems a number of people (a majority?) don't like 1840's revisionism, so they choose to reject it.
For the sake of consistency, though, should we not have some sort of rule of thumb for how we choose between two conflicting versions of events -- something that happens throughout the series as writers change and modify "facts" that we were previously given. I would propose that we are meant to accept the most recent version -- whether we like that version or not -- whether it's who built Collinwood in what year, who married or did not marry Josette, what Victoria Winters' fate was, etc.
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I'm not sure if my cloudy, sleep-deprived mind is resulting in bizarre posts. If so, just disregard anything that doesn't make sense ... :D
I think this thread ended up being more about reconciling (or not) the 1795 and 1840 backgrounds of Angelique.
To address the subject heading, here was the most recent relevant information about HOW Angelique became a witch, according to the 1840 storyline (which some viewers choose to reject).
Lazlo: "So you became what you are because of Judah Zachary."
Angelique: "Yes, his powers are awesome."
That's a bit sketchy, but it does indicate that Angelique was an ordinary girl who became a witch -- and immortal -- "because of" Judah Zachary.
I think Midnite quoted some more relevant material in an earlier post, which hasn't occurred yet on the show, that's in the same vein.
It would seem that, according to 1840 Miranda did not become immortal until sometime after Judah Zachary's beheading, though.
As I posted above, I feel this point actually is compatible with the the 1795 events, too.
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I have completely revised my post from yesterday (two posts above this). The modified post expresses better what I meant to say.
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I'm sure people are tired of this topic by now.
So, this isn't really on the topic, but is related in a way.
I recently ordered a book from England. I got it today, and the mailing address was ... Bedford. Seems too closely related to everything happening on DS and discussed here to be only a coincidence ...
:o
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;D I think they mean Bedford, NY. It was founded in the 1680s. It might have been named after an English town. A lot of those New England towns were named after English towns or Indian tribes. Bedford wasn't originally part of NY (in case there are sticklers for what New England means out there).
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;D I think they mean Bedford, NY. It was founded in the 1680s. It might have been named after an English town. A lot of those New England towns were named after English towns or Indian tribes. Bedford wasn't originally part of NY (in case there are sticklers for what New England means out there).
In one episode, I think another town was named where everything with Judah Zachary happened, and that town (whose name I couldn't make out) was said to be "near Bedford."
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Wouldn't Bedford, New Hampshire be more likely than Bedford, New York? Certainly more likely than Bedford, Virginia, or Bedford, Texas, no? ;D
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I'm sure that the Bedford named in those 1840 episodes was meant to be a Maine town or village near C'port. Julia travels there and back within the space of an afternoon and evening, so I sort of imagine it being right next to C'port--perhaps on the other side from where they situate Rockport, a neighboring town of which we do hear quite a bit over the years.
I don't have a map of Maine handy, so can't tell whether there are actual towns that bear the names Rockport and Bedford in Maine. We have both here in Mass. The town names tend to repeat through the New England states--Salem, Plymouth, etc. You get the drill.
G.
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::) After searching around for Bedfords, I'm changing my vote. Bedford, Mass is the town mentioned in "Mr. Juggins" site & that means that's probably the one on the show. The Bedford, NY one had an interesting history (I found, on the web) & fit nicely with the dates on the show. It used to be Bedford, CT (but those states changed borders). There seem to have been a lot of Bedfords!
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Note Angelique's words to Barnabas in Monday's (?) first episode.
-- Judah Zachary "made" her what she is (a witch)
-- in exchange for her testimony, she was assisted in leaving the country and went to the West Indies
-- from there she eventually went to Martinique, where she "met Josette"
No mention of having died and reincarnated in the interim.
Also, no mention made of having gone to Europe (a possibility I suggested) :-[
Of course, she might have left out a few minor details when she related the "Cliffs Notes" version of her past to Barnabas. ;D
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And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. She described Miranda as a member of Judah's Z's coven who later changed her name to Angelique. I guess in this case, Kate was right. Now we know how Ange got her powers too. Puzzle solved. Case closed. No? :)
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And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. She described Miranda as a member of Judah's Z's coven who later changed her name to Angelique. I guess in this case, Kate was right. Now we know how Ange got her powers too. Puzzle solved. Case closed. No? :)
Yes, this (plus the dialogue from Monday's episode quoted by Vlad) convinces me too. However, I still maintain that it's completely revisionist, given what was said about her before, which it directly contradicts.
I guess that when you're watching anything prior to the 1840 storyline, Angelique is a woman who was born in 1774 and became a witch on the island of Martinique. The Miranda/Angelique story is the truth for the character we meet in 1840. Like I said before, maybe 1840 is some kind of parallel time. >:D
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And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. ... Now we know how Ange got her powers too. Puzzle solved. Case closed. No? :)
Would that were true. But, sadly, the PomPress books are riddled with "facts" that are sometimes nothing more than misrepresentations, if not outright errors. The books are not the definitive sources that they should be, unfortunately. ::)
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In Angelique's Descent, there is a scene where Angelique is travelling through Collinsport for the first time and she thinks to herself that this land seems familiar for some reason, but she can't remember. LP seems to briefly bring up the past life as Miranda here.
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And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. She described Miranda as a member of Judah's Z's coven who later changed her name to Angelique.
It's worth noting that the excellent, accurate, and exhaustive DS FAQ states this also.
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And all this time it was all right there in KLS's DS almanac. She described Miranda as a member of Judah's Z's coven who later changed her name to Angelique.
It's worth noting that the excellent, accurate, and exhaustive DS FAQ states this also.
And it's also worth noting that some of the FAQ's info came from the PomPress books. ^-^
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I hadn't noticed that. Was any of that information inaccurate?
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I hadn't noticed that. Was any of that information inaccurate?
I hadn't actually looked at the FAQ since about 1996. But a quick glance over the first section did show that some inaccuracies have been corrected. However, at least one remains - the notion that Tom and Chris Jennings are twins, which can be directly traced to the PomPress books, and which, as has been discussed extensively (some might say ad nauseam [wink2]) on this forum, there is no direct evidence of on the show.
Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to check the other sections to see how much they may have been updated...
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Thanks, MB.
I'm very surprised that the FAQ would have said that Tom and Chris Jennings were twins (which, as you say, we've discussed -- it's never even suggested on the show, yet vast numbers of fans believe it to be the case ... ::) )
I've never read the FAQ thoroughly -- never printed it out -- but the sections I've read showed an impressive combination of no-nonense factual information, detailed observation, and eruditeness.