DARK SHADOWS FORUMS

General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: Zahir on October 16, 2006, 04:11:57 PM

Title: History of Collinwood
Post by: Zahir on October 16, 2006, 04:11:57 PM
Something that always struck me as odd.

The Old House was a very nice mansion, and pretty big too.  Yet it was built in an obscure part of the American wilderness overlooking what must have been a tiny fishing village.  Why?  Remember Barnabas going on and on about the elaborate materials brought to Maine for its construction?  That is mighty weird.  Makes you wonder if there wasn't something odd going on with the original Collins family.

But if anything Collinwood is stranger.  It isn't just large, it is huge.  Built in 1795, when Maine was still a very poor and obscure part of Massachussetts.  More, Collinwood is built in a style that didn't exist until several decades later!
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Brandon Collins on October 16, 2006, 04:46:17 PM
Perhaps the most obvious reason for the things you have brought up is the fact that the writers where very inconsistant in certain aspects of the show. I don't know when the mansion used for Collinwood was built, but I wouldn't have any other one as my Collinwood.

Maybe the Old House was built overlooking the village because the town is called "Collinsport" which means that the Collins founded it. In LP's The Salem Branch, if I remember correctly [spoiler]The Collinses originally settled near or in Salem, as they were present there in 1692 when Miranda was hung as a witch.[/spoiler] which could mean that since a branch went up to the upper part of what was Mass. as you have said, they were looking to bring commerce to the area and make bank in creating another port farther up. This no doubtedly would bring more settlers to the area because of work opportunities and the new ability to get supplies up there by sea rather than by land. The house was built above the town because, as illustrated many times by Roger, Edward, Joshua, etc, family pride was A number 1 on the list, and this would have told anyone coming into the town "Hey look at us rich folk all the way up here and not down in the dirty dirty dumps that we've created for you nasties to live in." Maybe a little harsh, but something to that effect.

Or I could've just went with the most simple excuse that the original premise of the show was a "Jane Eyre" type story, so a house on a hill was kind of necessary.  [hall2_wink] [female_skull]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: CastleBee on October 16, 2006, 06:16:33 PM
I don't know when the mansion used for Collinwood was built, but I wouldn't have any other one as my Collinwood.
I hear you BC - I feel the same way about the old place!  Here's an interesting little run down on the history - it's even younger than I once suspected...

The Carey Mansion ala Wikipedia
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carey_Mansion)[/color][/size]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Zahir on October 16, 2006, 07:34:53 PM
Yeah,  both mansions are quite gorgeous, but the point is--aren't they really huge (especially the Old House) for a tiny fishing village in the middle of a wilderness?  When Collinsport was founded, Boston was one of the largest cities in North America--and was hardly more than a big town.  Collinsport must have been nothing more than a few farms and fisherman huts.  Yet this PALACE was built there.

Think of it this way--if the Kennedies or Rockefellers decided to built a palatial home for themselves, would they do so in Moose Neck, Alaska with a population of maybe fifty people on an especially busy day?  And with no easy means of transport to and from the place?
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: CastleBee on October 16, 2006, 08:06:17 PM
Think of it this way--if the Kennedies or Rockefellers decided to built a palatial home for themselves, would they do so in Moose Neck, Alaska with a population of maybe fifty people on an especially busy day?  And with no easy means of transport to and from the place?
Ah, yes but, you see a Kennedy, a Rockefeller or even a Vanderbilt has nothing on a Collins for reclusive anti-social tendencies and the ability to come up with weird ideas and schemes. All the other old money mentioned may all have their various skeletons and attic dwelling nut cases but, not one of them can claim a vampire or werewolf as part of their incestry.  Any family that would beget that kind of supernatural offspring would have to start off with an unusual mindset.  [hall2_wink]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on October 16, 2006, 08:14:55 PM
Well, the fact that the Collinses built such impressive homes probably says more about them and the image they wanted to project of themselves onto the residents of Collinsport more than it does about the homes themselves.

And as for Collinwood, the original backstory was that it had been built decades later than was established during the 1795/96 storyline. Jeremiah had supposedly built Collinwood in the 19th century for Josette - which explains why it has such an influence of French architecture - and that actually made more sense. But, of course, once 1795/96 came along, that whole backstory was tossed out the window.  [hall2_undecided]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: MagnusTrask on October 17, 2006, 02:07:08 AM
Now I know the expression "Gilded Age" and when it was.   I wish I knew more about architecture.    In the last year or two I've looked at fronts of buildings and the details, because I wanted to use them in drawings.    I guess Collinwood should have been fairly new when Quentin was born.   It did look wrong in 1795 somehow.     Then, in PT 1692 (?)... !!    Brutus just looked ridiculous sitting there in the Drawing Room.

The Collinses had their business in Maine.    No airplanes, no freeways.     You don't get to be bi-coastal or to even speed down to Boston whenever you like in... whenever the Old House was originally built, or even Collinwood.   They had to be there to make their money.

The size of Collinwood is a mystery... I wonder if Maine has any mansions going back that far.    Come to think of it, that's the biggest damn house i've ever seen in my life, and in any era, only a handful of people live there, and they all hang out in one small room right next to the front door.   They keep both wings closed and just use the middle bit.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: MagnusTrask on October 17, 2006, 02:09:29 AM
Some problem is keeping us off certain threads at certain times, and a long post of mine just got obliterated.

Anyway, their business was in Maine, and they had to live there.    The size was crazy even for today... they have to keep both wings closed.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: michael c on October 17, 2006, 02:49:28 AM
that's so true mangus,

collinwood is enormous and yet they all do just hang out in that front room off the foyer.i mean the "drawing room" of course.but at least it's explained right off the bat that much of the house is "closed off" and at various points in time we are privy to the study,the kitchen,the characters bedrooms and countless,unused,spooky east wing/west wing/basement/attic rooms.

over at the old house despite it's massive scale the only rooms we ever see are the foyer/drawing room,josette's room and the basement which seems to alternate between being barnabas' coffin chamber and julia's lab.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Raineypark on October 17, 2006, 02:58:18 AM
.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]

I always thought it was the kitchen.....[lghy]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: MagnusTrask on October 17, 2006, 03:07:25 AM
I'll have to look for Barn's funky louvred door now... I don't remember it.   Maybe that's because I'm not totally sure what "louvered" means.  Moulding, or something?  You can see what I mean now about my not knowing much about architecture.

Someone was just nice enough to point out that my longer post posted.   I won't say who because I may have just found out about some bit of Internet etiquette where you aren't supposed to tell anyone about a PM or give the name of the sender, even if there's nothing especially private or controversial in it.    I was just hounded off a board by someone for something like this.   Anyway, thanks.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Brandon Collins on October 17, 2006, 03:22:16 AM
Then, in PT 1692 (?)... !!    Brutus just looked ridiculous sitting there in the Drawing Room.

Yes, especially since Collinwood wasn't built until 1796! Even though this is PT, it would absolutely absurd to believe that Collinwood existed that far back. He was probably shown in Collinwood because I think the set for the Old House got thrown out or burned or something so they didn't have it anymore. That sucks.

And I think the "funky louvred door" is the double doors to the left of the fireplace that looks like a closet--where Willie and Barnabas go to time and again to get the gun. Perhaps its a walk-in gun closet? [hall2_wink] [female_skull]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on October 17, 2006, 04:26:59 AM
He was probably shown in Collinwood because I think the set for the Old House got thrown out or burned or something so they didn't have it anymore. That sucks.

Umm, [spoiler]Bramwell, Josette and Daphne were living at the Old House in 1841PT[/spoiler]- the sets still existed.  [hall_wink]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: BuzzH on October 17, 2006, 04:37:48 AM
over at the old house despite it's massive scale the only rooms we ever see are the foyer/drawing room,josette's room and the basement which seems to alternate between being barnabas' coffin chamber and julia's lab.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to.

Actually, in 1795 we also get to see Barnabas's room, Jeremiah's room, Joshua & Naomi's room (which becomes Barnabas's room when he 'dies'), Sarah's room, Vickie's room, Angelique's room and Joshua's study.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: barnabasjr on October 17, 2006, 04:49:06 AM
over at the old house.....we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]
I always wondered what was back there, too.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: BuzzH on October 17, 2006, 04:32:24 PM
Perhaps its a walk-in gun closet?

LOL, indeed!   [hall2_grin]  I also think you could get to the back door of the place that way because several times ppl would either emerge from there, or go through that door out of the Drawing Room saying either they'd just come in the back way or were going out the back way. 
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: CastleBee on October 17, 2006, 06:03:09 PM
.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]
My guess was that it as a small sitting area that led to other rooms on that side of the house.  (I thought of the kitchen as being off camera or more or less to the right and straight ahead as you face the fireplace.)  I think that one of the DS books refers to the room behind the louvered doors as being a study.

One thing about both houses is that you really don't see all that much of either when you come right down to it.  It's what is implied and what you imagine that makes it seem so big.  I never thought as much about the Old House but, I've always imagined Collinwood to be almost infinite.  Considering those portals into PT that came later I guess you could make an argument for that idea.
[/color]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Janet the Wicked on October 20, 2006, 05:40:32 PM
.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]

I always thought it was the kitchen.....[lghy]

That's what I think too. There is an episode where Willie is seen carrying a step ladder through that door.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: CallieWL on October 20, 2006, 06:15:05 PM
.we never even get to see where that funky louvered door leads to. [hall2_tongue]

If you look at that door, it's not really even a louvered door.  (I always thought it was until I got a closer look one time.)  There are slats with a small open space between them, and they're not at an angle at all, nor do they move.

I imagine that the door leads to a servants hallway, the kitchen, back stairs, etc.  That makes more sense than having the basement door within viewing range of the front door, as it was by the time Nicholas showed up.  Like lots of places on the show, they got closer and closer to each other as time moved on!
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: CastleBee on October 20, 2006, 06:39:23 PM
That makes more sense than having the basement door within viewing range of the front door, as it was by the time Nicholas showed up.
That's one of my extreme pet peeves about the Old House - that totally FUGLY basement door which ended up being the focal point of the foyer.  I can't imagine this in an otherwise elegant 18th century house.  I remember at first there appeared to be a long hallway and maybe even a few twists and turns that led to that door - which makes way more sense to me.[/size]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: BuzzH on October 20, 2006, 07:36:11 PM
That's one of my extreme pet peeves about the Old House - that totally FUGLY basement door which ended up being the focal point of the foyer.  I can't imagine this in an otherwise elegant 18th century house.  I remember at first there appeared to be a long hallway and maybe even a few twists and turns that led to that door - which makes way more sense to me.

ITA!  The way I 'justify' it in my mind is that Barnabas had Willie install that door when he moved back in to keep pesky little boys out of the basement/coffin room.  There's no way in hell that door realistically existed in 1795 (had they even discovered/invented steel by then?).  'Course, now I'll go back and watch 1795 and that damn door will be there, LOL!   [hall2_rolleyes]

I also think there used to be at least one turn and a longish hallway before the door became visible.  I'm vaguely remembering David walking down this hallway to the door and being caught by Julia before he could get to the basement.  This was before she and Barnabas had joined forces to become the dynamic duo they would eventually become.

Anyway, like you say, by the time of the 1968 plotline you could look out that door's window and see the front entrance doors.  Hard to believe Sy made a mistake like this but there you have it.   [hall_cool]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: arashi on October 21, 2006, 04:42:01 AM
That makes more sense than having the basement door within viewing range of the front door, as it was by the time Nicholas showed up.
That's one of my extreme pet peeves about the Old House - that totally FUGLY basement door which ended up being the focal point of the foyer.  I can't imagine this in an otherwise elegant 18th century house.  I remember at first there appeared to be a long hallway and maybe even a few twists and turns that led to that door - which makes way more sense to me.[/size]

OMG! Isn't that door horrible? I always wondered why the damn thing was SO CLOSE to the front door. It's so out of place, and wouldn't people question why you needed a steel door with bars on it to keep people out of your basement? And for that matter why are there so many damn jail-esque cells built into the house?
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Brandon Collins on October 21, 2006, 05:28:43 AM
OMG! Isn't that door horrible? I always wondered why the damn thing was SO CLOSE to the front door. It's so out of place, and wouldn't people question why you needed a steel door with bars on it to keep people out of your basement? And for that matter why are there so many damn jail-esque cells built into the house?

No kidding! Ugly door, stupid cells! There are even cells in the basement of Collinwood, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps these were used to lock away bad-behaved servants? They probably would've just shot them instead.

And on another note, let me just say that I love the way that HODS is shot the same way as the series--they close up on Carolyn so Barnabas can enter the shot. How polite. [female_skull]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Pansity on December 04, 2006, 12:13:00 AM
The size of Collinwood is a mystery... I wonder if Maine has any mansions going back that far.    Come to think of it, that's the biggest damn house i've ever seen in my life, and in any era, only a handful of people live there, and they all hang out in one small room right next to the front door.   They keep both wings closed and just use the middle bit.

Don't know about Maine, but the mansions from that period in the NY area are much more Federal Style (plain front kind of boxy -- all the ornate stuff is INSIDE).

Your post got me thinking about a few discussion threads on just this topic on one of my yahoo groups (which alas, went dormant due to some fannish stupidity a few years ago, and I am going to make another crack at waking it up.)  ds history vs. melodrama is the name of the group, and we had a really good group for a while discussing the real life history vs what DS shows. (anyone interested in the group please pm me.)

In any case, from what i remember from the posts on this, the size of the house can be explained by the Collins trying to ape the "stately homes" of England of the 16 & 1700s -- I remember Blenheim Palace used as an example.  Folks in those days, especialy the rich ones, needed LOTS of room.  First off houseguests in those days stayed for MONTHS since transportation was so horrible.  Secondly you have extended families (at least it would seem this was Joshua's intent) living under the same roof.  Think of the wings as daughter in law houses and you get the picture.

Thirdly you have the need for TONS AND TONS of SERVANTS.  Especially with a houseful of guests, the guests would be bringing along THEIR servants, as we see with Josette and Angelique.  NOt to mention that in those days food preparation, housework and the other functions of running the house were done with people power not labor saving devices.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Nelson Collins on December 06, 2006, 11:46:34 PM
Thirdly you have the need for TONS AND TONS of SERVANTS.  Especially with a houseful of guests, the guests would be bringing along THEIR servants, as we see with Josette and Angelique.  NOt to mention that in those days food preparation, housework and the other functions of running the house were done with people power not labor saving devices.
Gosford Park is a very good example of this: A Huge house just crawling with servants, not only the Master's staff but all the servants brought by the guests.  The downstairs kitchens and laundry etc. is a virtual rabbit warren.

While living in that style may have been Joshua's intent when having Collinwood built, sadly, the events of 1795 certainly cast a pall on those dreams, by the end of storyline [spoiler]the only truly "living" Collinses were Joshua, Millicent (mad), and her brother (?) Daniel, IIRC.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Joeytrom on December 07, 2006, 12:32:37 AM
Yes, [spoiler]there were only three Collinses living at Collinwood after 1795.[/spoiler] Perhaps Joshua hired a new governess for Daniel and a nurse to care for Millicent.  There were the other servants like Riggs, maids, and the cook still in the house.
Ben was probably also there from time to time when he wasn't at his own house/land.

Joshua & Millicent still may have been alive when Daniel married Harriet.  The supernatural seems to be dormant for a few decades before acting up at Collinwood again.  Perhaps there was a pleasant athmosphere when Quentin & Gabriel were children.



Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: michael c on December 07, 2006, 03:08:56 AM
i'll throw something else into the time-honored "kitchen/breakfast room" debate(a debate that perhaps exists only in my own mind).

i recently rewatched the early jason mcguire blackmail episodes and the first willie loomis(james hall,who while undeniably creepy,was sort of dirty/sexy where as johny karlen's willie was more sad-eyed-puppy-dog-cute)and the louse enters said kitchen/breakfast room and demands that he be served breakfast.vicki beats a hasty retreat from this room,locates mrs.johnson,returns and reports to willie that she's fixing him breakfast as they speak...in some other room.

so perhaps i'll refer to this space as the "solarium/breakfast room" i honor of that funky greenhouse area.
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: Mysterious Benefactor on December 07, 2006, 03:35:32 AM
vicki beats a hasty retreat from this room,locates mrs.johnson,returns and reports to willie that she's fixing him breakfast as they speak...in some other room.

so perhaps i'll refer to this space as the "solarium/breakfast room" i honor of that funky greenhouse area.

That's probably a perfect assessment, mscbryk. And probably the only reason we see the dinner with Laura take place in the same room is because they didn't have the space and/or the budget to create a dining room set...
Title: Re: History of Collinwood
Post by: BuzzH on December 08, 2006, 04:29:20 PM
While living in that style may have been Joshua's intent when having Collinwood built, sadly, the events of 1795 certainly cast a pall on those dreams, by the end of storyline [spoiler]the only truly "living" Collinses were Joshua, Millicent (mad), and her brother (?) Daniel, IIRC.[/spoiler]

Which is why, to me, 1795 is the saddest of all the plotlines!  It's all just so tragic!  Especially at the end when [spoiler]Joshua comes to his senses and tries to tell Barnabas that he DOES love him.  The looks they give each other as they say goodbye for the last time just breaks my heart everytime![/spoiler]

 [santa_cry]