Author Topic: Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6  (Read 5187 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Selby_D._Pearson

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2003, 10:47:44 AM »
It "sells" the show better to new viewers and allows older ones to enjoy the episodes the way they were intended to be seen.  Artistically speaking, can anyone seriously say that the episode is worse for losing a very sad example of an elderly actress being impatiently prompted as she struggles to perform?

I seriously doubt that MPI will be placing a packaging label on the DVD sets proclaiming "Now, with major bloopers and line flubs edited out so that nothing will detract from the dramatic storylines and superb acting ability of the stars of Dark Shadows!" Do you honestly think that they have received complaints from the people who bought the VHS tapes, begging for the bloopers to be edited out? Do you honestly think that the average young person who's never heard of Dark Shadows will hear that Dark Shadows has had its major bloopers edited and suddenly say to himself "Hmmm. No major bloopers. This sounds like a pretty professional show. I think I'll give it a try!"

The simple fact is, a fan started this thread because they noticed that the episode had been tampered with. When MPI promised that the DVD episodes would be remastered from the original source material uncut and intact, I for one hoped that, with their being a reputable company, they would hold to their promise. Your opinion that the glaring bloopers should be cut and my opinion that they should be left intact have little to do with the fact that MPI has not abided by its own previously stated standards.

Respectfully still,

SDP

Offline Bobubas

  • Full A ed Newest Fervor Post
  • Full Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: +2304/-455
  • Gender: Male
  • The Gates of Hell.
    • View Profile
    • Bob's Dark Shadow Event Photos
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2003, 02:38:48 PM »

I believe that the folks at MPI are supposed to be producing a CLASSIC CULT SHOW for DEVOTED FANS of that show, who remember it when it was originally run (or as it was run in reruns in the 1980s up till now) and want a TRUE and ACCURATE reproduction of that show, warts and all.
SDP

To edit or alter the episodes is not only a form of censorship, but also is tampering with a part of television history.                                           
                                     Bob
Your Focus Determines Your Reality!
Everything in Life is only for now!

Nancy

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2003, 02:39:04 PM »
Selby,

You are talking about those who are already fans of the show, many from the original run, and not a newer generation of people who are accustomed to higher production values that are seen on the air.   People in their 20s do not have a memory of "live" TV and I suspect their experience of it and its bloopers is limited.  Those who rent DVDs out of curiousity may see a dilly or two of a blooper and wonder what they are in for elsewhere.  If I saw some of the more blatant gaffes and bloopers for the first time frankly I would not pursue watching it.   Much of my theory about why MPI is editing some of the more blatant gaffes is because I have known people who started to watch DS because their parents did, but found some gaffes too distracting to bother watching anymore.  Some people enjoy the feel of live television and errors don't bother them, others don't.  I seriously doubt fans of DS are going to stop buying the DVDs because some bloopers aren't on there.

Quote
The PBS stations of the 1980s and the Sci Fi Channel in the 1990s have shown that airing DS uncut, in its original form produces loyal viewers in great numbers. The Festival attendence soars when the show is being currently broadcast and most of those Festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before. Most times that DS is featured on a show like "Entertainment Tonight" or "Extra" the bloopers are mentioned as an integral part of the show.

The bloopers were mentioned as being part of the production by the nature of how the show was done.  That's very different than being viewed as an "integral" part of a show.  You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before."  I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?

Quote
  Many of the actors, whether they mean it or not, publicly speak of the bloopers in endearing terms.

I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers.  Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point.

Quote
And the DS blooper tape apparently still sells very well. Perhaps MPI's cutting of classic bloopers will further their sales of the blooper tape (DVD eventually) by allowing them to promote it as "the only place you can see Bathia Mapes go up and other classic bloopers"?

Outtake tapes tend to sell very well, and I buy them. However, you will note that the outtakes you see on such tapes aren't actually seen in the program/show in question.   I don't want to see them on the actual show.

Quote
If MPI is attempting to clean these up to attract a "larger and more diverse audience" (which I don't believe), why then did they leave intact the blooper of the DS studio person who was caught in the mausoleum with Barnabas and Angelique? IMO, this was a greater blooper than the off camera line feed to Anita Bolster. Why did they leave in "That night must go nothing wrong"?!! Why leave in the intruding TV camera when Carolyn was reporting Julia's comings and goings to Barnabas? Could not these bloopers have been "fixed" for the DVD releases?


No.  And the reason for that is that fixing lines that an actor trips over and people/camera in a scene is far more difficult to edit and would probably call more attention to the flub or error if done.  It is far easier to dub over or cut out something like an offstage voice saying something when there is otherwise silence than to edit dialogue where a word or two is juxtapositioned.  Covering a camera on the screen or a crew person on screen when there is a scene going on is extremely difficult.

Quote
Where were the fan complaints about the presence of these bloopers on the VHS tapes and DVDs?

As you have pointed out, the bloopers are a reality because that is how the show aired and was taped. Fans have indeed found fault with the muffed lines and other gaffes claiming it to be distracting.  But there would be little point writing to Dan Curtis after the fact complaining about the presence of the bloopers.  But put the show on a major network now day or evening and see what would be said about the bloopers.

Quote
Whether MPI ever does away with the bloopers or not, the simple fact of the matter is that with the continued production of the blooper tape, people will always be aware that these bloopers occured during the actual show itself because they were gleaned from it.

Bloopers and outtakes are a reality of every single TV show there is or was.  I don't think anyone believes something as involved as a TV show (or any kind of production) happens without any miscues or mistakes.  That doesn't even happen at work, certainly not in my job!!

Quote
No matter how much the people involved with DS wish the bloopers weren't there, they will always be an integral part of it. These folks have every right to be very proud of a classic show that they, together, created. If there are any of them who have not yet gotten over the bloopers or their own stumbling for lines or looking desperately for the teleprompter, they should stop crying over spilt milk and join the fun in appreciating the show for what it was.

I believe every fan or every actor should be entitled to remember the show as they wish, and not be told how they should remember it or view their own work.   I don't get the intense interest over bloopers or why anyone would devote any amount of time actually looking for them but if that is what someone wants to do because h/she enjoys it, that's up to the individual if it rocks h/her boat..  It's easy to tell an actor who might wince or object to seeing his or her mistakes over and over again to just get over it because it's not your mistake and it's not your work that's made fun of.

 
Quote
Perhaps it wasn't on the same level as "All in the Family" or "The Sopranos" but it certainly holds its own special place in TV history. Jonathan Frid once said that DS has now become a part of American folklore. He also said that while more often than not, they fell on their faces (perhaps meaning that bloopers and mis-spoken lines made up a majority of the show?) every once in a while they reached for and found their place in the stars and made TV magic.  As a fan, I certainly loved those magic moments. But, also just as endearing were the times when, still trying to reach those stars, they heroically fell like the rest of us fallible human beings.

I watched the show during the original run and the bloopers went over my head.  I just went passed them.   It was the character of Barnabas, Roger and others that reminded me about the fallibility of human beings.  That's why I watched the show - to see these flawed people try to overcome the obstacles they faced.

I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to.  Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available.  That way, everyone is happy. :D

Nancy



Offline boykading

  • Junior Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 40
  • Karma: +4/-102
  • Gender: Female
  • Arggh.
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2003, 04:08:50 PM »
To edit (after the fact) or not to edit? I'm not going to take sides in this debate, but I think what it really shows after all these years is that DC was a bit remiss in his duties on several occasions.

We've all heard how ruinously expensive it was to edit video back then, but I seriously doubt that a snip here or there, say once a month, would've caused too much damage to the budget. I think the simple fact was that TPTB (DCP) were just not terribly interested or concerned about "trivial" matters such as these.

I think DC took the "actors as cattle" viewpoint and didn't care too much about flubs and that sort of thing. Which is pretty disrespectful, if you ask me.

I like a good blooper now and then - "incestors", Quentin's sword thing, Barn walking through the set carrying his streeet clothes - but stuff like someone having to be prompted off-stage and the star of the show caught picking his nose are just inexcusable. I just don't see how it would have hurt them to simply edit those out *the day they were shot*.




Offline Raineypark

  • DSF God
  • *****
  • Posts: 2749
  • Karma: +13053/-14422
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2003, 04:28:59 PM »
I think it's also useful to remember that no matter how 'proprietary' we feel about this show we all love, we do NOT, in fact, own it.  And if those who actually DO own it choose to allow it to be edited  they are entirely within their rights to do so.  We might hate it AND them....but to imply it is censorship is out of line.  That's like implying I should have no right to correct my frequently demented spelling on this forum, because other members might find it amusing.
"Do not go gentle into that good night.  Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
Dylan Thomas

Offline Bobubas

  • Full A ed Newest Fervor Post
  • Full Poster
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Karma: +2304/-455
  • Gender: Male
  • The Gates of Hell.
    • View Profile
    • Bob's Dark Shadow Event Photos
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2003, 06:29:55 PM »
...but to imply it is censorship is out of line
Censorship as defined in my Webster's states ; "to examine books, letters, movies, etc. and remove or hold back ANYTHING thought not right for people to see or hear."

Also, I did not, as you wrote " imply" it was censorship, I most surely stated it.  ;)
Your Focus Determines Your Reality!
Everything in Life is only for now!

Selby_D._Pearson

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2003, 07:17:33 PM »
Quote
You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before."  I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?

To clarify, many having never seen the show until fairly recently, i.e. on Sci Fi or on the videotapes. A new generation of DS fans, as it were. Many are introduced to DS by their parents, older relatives or friends. At each Festival, during her first presentation on stage, Kathryn Leigh Scott asks the audience for a show of hands for first time Festival attendees. Usually, it is at least half of the audience. This is most likely done to assure that fans both old and new are discovering DS by way of the tapes, Sci Fi, and/or DS related books.

Quote
I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers.  Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point.

And this is one difference between fans and the DS actors. With all due respect, apparently you try to fit in somewhere in between.

Quote
I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to.  Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available.  That way, everyone is happy.

Why, how wise of you! Your middle name must be Solomon!  ;)

I just don't get your argument. How can removing only a handful of bloopers (and not even the worst ones but the ones that are EASY to remove, as you stated) from hundreds of them make the show more enjoyable for new fans?

Still, our speculation does not alter the fact that MPI initially stated that the DVDs would be mastered from the original sources, uncut and intact. We've not heard from MPI Marketing regarding this change in policy. I'd like to see their statement regarding this issue before I reply any further.

SDP

Nancy

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2003, 07:52:39 PM »
Quote
>>You say "most of those festival attendees are there for the first time. Many are new fans, having never seen the show before."  I'm confused - why were they at a festival for a show they had not yet seen? Did you mean this in some other way?<<

Selby_D._Pearson wrote:
Quote
To clarify, many having never seen the show until fairly recently, i.e. on Sci Fi or on the videotapes. A new generation of DS fans, as it were. Many are introduced to DS by their parents, older relatives or friends. At each Festival, during her first presentation on stage, Kathryn Leigh Scott asks the audience for a show of hands for first time Festival attendees. Usually, it is at least half of the audience. This is most likely done to assure that fans both old and new are discovering DS by way of the tapes, Sci Fi, and/or DS related books.

Asking for a show of hands for first time attendees is standard practice at many annual gatherings.  Unfortunately, there is no way to tell short of taking a survey how the fans who raised their hands first discovered the show, are spouses of fans but have no interest in show (but it's their first time there), etc.

Quote
>>I have heard the actors describe the bloopers as embarrassing and while they just deal with the reality that their mistakes survive on tape, several have stated they don't get why fans look for bloopers.  Louis Edmonds and Jonathan Frid are two actors that immediately come to mind as having made this point. <<

Selby_D._Pearson wrote:
Quote
And this is one difference between fans and the DS actors. With all due respect, apparently you try to fit in somewhere in between.

No, not trying to fit in anywhere.  I've worked as a professional actor and I have heard all points of view about the bloopers, including those statements made by the actors.  I understand their point even easier since I don't get the fascination with looking for bloopers. But, to each his own. They have the right to feel as they do about their own work.  ;D   You mentioned that some of the actors said the bloopers were endearing and I just pointed out two key actors who disagree.  One who made many bloopers and one who hardly made any (and recovered nicely when he did).  I don't think any of the actors should alter their view of bloopers to suit the sensibilities of fans.  It's their work.

Quote
>>I'm still glad MPI is editing out the bloopers where they are able to.  Those who feel cheated can buy the Blooper tape which is still available.  That way, everyone is happy.<<

Selby_D._Pearson wrote:
Quote
Why, how wise of you! Your middle name must be Solomon!  ;)

Yeah! And I can discuss without being sarcastic too. I must be really, really wise. ;)

Selby_D._Pearson wrote:
Quote
I just don?t get your argument. How can removing only a handful of bloopers (and not even the worst ones but the ones that are EASY to remove, as you stated) from hundreds of them make the show more enjoyable for new fans?

You will have to wait and see if MPI answers since they are the ones who are doing the editing.  I was guessing at their reasoning which was much of the discussion on the rest of the thread.   I think the Bathia Mapes blooper was one of the all time worst though I admit to not knowing all the bloopers on the series.  To have a voice of someone not even a cast member . . ugh!  I would delete that one myself.

Nancy

Offline dom

  • Long Lost Cousin Returned
  • Global Moderator
  • SENIOR ASCENDANT
  • *****
  • Posts: 12180
  • Karma: +591/-43265
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2003, 08:03:51 PM »
Please, let us all remember to keep this discussion civil and nonpersonal. Emoticons do not erase, ease, or justify sarcasm.


Thanks,
dom

ClaudeNorth

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2003, 08:29:58 PM »
Considering that the DVDs are supposed to contain the original, uncut episodes, any sort of alteration is unacceptable.  I can understand why some would believe that DS would have a wider appeal without the bloopers--certainly the show is unfairly dismissed by many because of the bloopers--but the show has managed to maintain a level of popularity since its cancellation with the bloopers firmly intact.

Personally, I love the bloopers and feel that they are an integral part of the DS legacy.  Rather than distracting from the series, I find that they enhance it, by serving as a reminder of the enormous pressure that the cast and crew were under.  I never fail to be impressed by the players' ability to exhibit grace under pressure, handling whatever mishaps befell them and managing to maintain the dramatic intensity of the scene.  The bloopers were a natural by-product of the live-on-tape format, and their presence enhances the excitement of watching DS.  Anything could happen, and it often did.

I'm not a fan of the school of thought that endorses the updating of so-called outdated works in order to enhance their appeal to contemporary audiences.  Whether it's Ted Turner colorizing black-and-white films, or George Lucas "improving" the original STAR WARS trilogy, I feel that art is both a product and a reflection of its time, and must be preserved in its original form.  Granted, we are discussing mistakes--moments that should not have happened in the first place.  However, as I stated earlier, these moments are a reflection of the way the show was produced, and the period in which it was produced.  They happened and, for better or for worse, are part of the DS legend.

Regards,

John

Offline mpi_marketing

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Karma: +2/-82
  • I love DS!
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2003, 09:08:34 PM »
To All Dark Shadows Fans:

The deleted blooper in DVD Collection 6 is an isolated error and was not edited out intentionally on MPI's part as we are committed to presenting the series as it originally aired. All previous MPI "Dark Shadows" DVDs have presented the episodes complete and that is our goal for each release in the future.

We have discovered that the new master supplied to us for the episode in question was edited without authorization by the video and audio restoration facility that has remastered the original episodes into digitial format to preserve them for the program's owner,  Dan Curtis Productions.

Every step will be taken to prevent  this oversight from happening again. Although no dialogue was edited out of the episode in question, we want to preserve the integrity of "Dark Shadows," which means keeping in all the mistakes that are part of the show's charm and appeal.

Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.

Thank you for your interest and understanding.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

  • Systems Manager /
  • Administrator
  • NEW SUPERNAL SCEPTER
  • *****
  • Posts: 16331
  • Karma: +205/-12208
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2003, 09:12:10 PM »
Thank you for your interest and understanding.

And thank you for responding to what had obviously become a hotly contested issue. :)

Offline ProfStokes

  • * Ingenious Intellect *
  • Senior Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 2304
  • Karma: +74/-1519
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2003, 09:55:53 PM »
You are talking about those who are already fans of the show, many from the original run, and not a newer generation of people who are accustomed to higher production values that are seen on the air.   People in their 20s do not have a memory of "live" TV and I suspect their experience of it and its bloopers is limited...Some people enjoy the feel of live television and errors don't bother them, others don't.

Speaking as one of the newer generations of fans, I have to say the bloopers actually make me more impressed with the show for much of the same reasons that ClaudeNorth has mentioned.  These actors faced a hefty share of adversity in filming the series, but when gaffes happened, they just kept going, day after day, week after week for five years.  Never mind the production values--that perseverance is professionalism enough!

Personally, I've never been too dazzled by modern special effects.  Apparently these are supposed to appeal to the viewers because they're so state of the art and they do seem to draw crowds to the box office, but rather than enhancing the viewing experience, I find that they distract me from the movie even further because they look so out of place.  For instance, a friend of mine recently raved to me about seeing Hulk.  I've only seen the commercials on TV, but when he asked me what I thought of it, I replied that the Hulk looked like a cartoon character.  "What's wrong with that?" he demanded.  "Well, it's difficult to focus on a movie when your main character is obviously fake."  These new CGI creations are supposed to be so lifelike but when I see them, all I can think of is Who Framed Roger Rabbit?  I don't want to see a computerized cutout, I want to see somebody who can act.  Meanwhile, I still ooh and ahh over 1933's The Invisible Man...

Although I own and enjoy the blooper tape, I have more fun watching the show and catching the mishaps as they occur.  This way, I'm not expecting them and I can laugh that much more because they take me by surprise.  When I watch a blooper tape, I know that I'm waiting for something to go wrong and the freshness is lost.

The Bathia Mapes blooper is my favorite of them all and I was very sorry to learn that it had been omitted from the DVD.  I first saw this incident several years ago while watching my tape of the episode as it aired on the Sci-Fi Channel.  I can remember bolting upright in astonishment when the blooper happened and then calling in both my father and mother, who don't watch to the show, to come and see what had happened.  I replayed the scene and we all shared a good laugh. It was a fond family moment.  To this day, if a newscaster is staring blankly at the camera, unaware of being on the air, I yell at him or her to "Go to the house of the curse."  It's a fun and pervasive little joke and I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of it.

Dark Shadows is a product of its times and different aspects of it appeal to different people; we just have to accept it as is, for better or worse.  As for the blooper in question, I'm relieved to see that the edit wasn't intentional and I hope that the mistaken 'correction' can somehow be fixed in future DVD releases.

ProfStokes

Nancy

  • Guest
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2003, 10:01:41 PM »
Thanks for the prompt answer to the question! Shot my theory to hell, didn't it????  ::)  Now we know.

Nancy

To All Dark Shadows Fans:

The deleted blooper in DVD Collection 6 is an isolated error and was not edited out intentionally on MPI's part as we are committed to presenting the series as it originally aired. All previous MPI "Dark Shadows" DVDs have presented the episodes complete and that is our goal for each release in the future.

We have discovered that the new master supplied to us for the episode in question was edited without authorization by the video and audio restoration facility that has remastered the original episodes into digitial format to preserve them for the program's owner,  Dan Curtis Productions.

Every step will be taken to prevent  this oversight from happening again. Although no dialogue was edited out of the episode in question, we want to preserve the integrity of "Dark Shadows," which means keeping in all the mistakes that are part of the show's charm and appeal.

Additionally, the missing blooper will be seen on MPI's DVD release of "Dark Shadows Bloopers" in the coming year, along with other surprises.

Thank you for your interest and understanding.

Offline Joeytrom

  • Senior Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Karma: +98/-946
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re:Classic Blooper edited out on MPI DVD#6
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2003, 10:51:35 PM »
What about the Victoria Winters reference in the Leviathan storyline?  I know that no one would want to see "altered episodes" where a new actor supplies a voice for Paul Stoddard's ghost (as opposed to Peter Bradford) while they used some computer generated image of a faceless ghost.

But what if, when they get to this storyline, they do something like that and still keep the original episodes on the same DVD.  they let the consumer be able to decide which version he/she wants to see- Peter Bradford's ghost or Paul Stoddard's ghost.  You can see the altered or the original version....do you think that could be a good idea?

Joey