John Seavey’s Storytelling Engines: Angel

[Mysterious Benefactor]

You might think this topic is OT, but no. This article:

John Seavey’s Storytelling Engines: Angel

claims that the 'idea of a (say it with me now) “vampire with a soul”, fighting for his own personal redemption by doing good deeds' can be traced back to DS. Well, not quite because when he was a vampire, Barnabas didn't have a soul, at least not in the same way that Angel did - though Barnabas did have a conscience. And while the two can be similar, they're not identical. Though one could definitely say that Barnabas did often fight for his own personal redemption - though with him, whether he was a vampire or not, he often took one step forward and two steps back. 

Discuss...

[Taeylor Collins]

Well I heard one critic say that Barnabas totally transformed the Vampire genre. Up until him the vampire was only played as an evil, malicious, predator.  And that Barnabas changed the course of history by being the first reluctant vampire in literature or film.  This was on one of the DVDs extras towards the end of the show. He paved the way for Louie or is it Louis, Angel, the Twillight vampire, and lead vampire on True Blood.

[Gothick]

They never discussed in the DS scripts whether or not Barnabas had a soul when he was a vampire.  Perhaps the idea of a vampire lacking a soul comes from Miss Rice?  It may exist in some of the old Eastern European folklore collected by "Reverence" Montague Summers back in the 1920s.  Many indigenous or pre-Christian thought systems treat what we would call the "soul" as having three components.  Due to traumas of various kinds (includes being the victim of a hex/curse), part of this tripartite "soul" can be ripped away.  If what remains includes the original physical body imbued with some form of life force, this can behave like someone possessed or like "one of the living dead."  I won't go on because I am getting into off topic waters here.

To me, the way the Angel character was handled on Buffy (from what I saw of it) was very different from how Barnabas was portrayed on DS.  Of course, I'm sure that there was some awareness of Barnabas and DS in the mix on the part of the people who worked on the show.  Has Joss Whedon ever mentioned the series in interviews?

G.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

The only time that I'm aware that Whedon mentioned DS was when he was upset with rumors that the WB was supposedly canceling Angel in favor of the '04 DS pilot. But as we know, the canceling of Angel and the '04 pilot actually had nothing to do with each other. And I've read many interviews with Whedon, and I've never seen him reference DS in any capacity as an inspiration for anything he has done - and I can't say that's ever really surprised me. I love DS and I've loved everything I've seen Whedon do, but I don't think they have all that much in common.

[quentincollins]

The vampire in Dracula's Daughter definitely struggled against her vampire nature in the 30's, but the idea of a heroic vampire didn't really begin until Barnabas. There was no mention in DS about if Barnabas had a soul or not. I think he did , as nothing says he didn't. In Anne Rice's works, Lestat says he doesn't know if he has a soul or not, but from his spiritual journey thru th ebooks I think her vamps have souls.
There are a lot of similarities between Angel and Barnabas. Angel came from a wealthy family in the 1770's, with a difficult relationship with his father, a loving but weak mother, and a much younger sweet but frail sister. Angel's time of origin, his background and his family are nearly identical to Barnabas's. Angel was made a vampire by Darla, a beautiful angelic appearing blonde who was his lover as well as later his enemy. Angel's realtionship with Darla is very similar to Barnabas's relationship with Angelique.
I think it's obvious that Angel was strongly influenced by DS and Barnabas. Nearly all vampires since DS have been influenced by Barnabas, including Coppola's Dracula, with Dracula a more romantic figure pining for his lost love and the music box he gives her.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Perhaps. But I don't really see the Darla/Angel relationship on the same plane as Angelique/Barnabas at all. Darla loved Angel, but an obsession on the level on Angelique's for Barnabas? Not really. And Barnabas' and Angel's family hierarchy might be similar, but Angel was basically a no good drunkard, something Barnabas was most definitely not. And after becoming a vampire Angel wasted no time in destroying his family and relished every minute of it - even destroying his sister. That was not at all like Barnabas.

[GooberCollins]

Dark Shadows has been mentioned by the BtVS&A staff, though never through Whedon himself as far as I know. A clip from DS even appears in the Buffy Season 2 DVD bonus features. In addition to that, one of the writers mentioned DS in a commentary, saying that he "felt Buffy was closer to My So-Called Life than Dark Shadows." Gunn also directly referenced DS in an episode of Angel, and there are a few paragraphs dedicated to DS in Buffy: The Monster Book, though they had a few pieces of incorrect information if I remember correctly.

In reference to Taeylor's comments on TrueBlood, Bill and Barnabas are tremendously different characters; I wouldn't really describe Bill as a tortured soul type. Of course, Barnabas helped to usher in vampire mania to the modern era, setting the stage for Anne Rice to further popularize vampires, eventually leading up to the new generation of Buffy, Angel, Sookie Stackhouse/Southern Vampire Mysteries/TrueBlood (too many blasted names for one series!), Twilight, Moonlight, et al, so it's entirely possible that Bill wouldn't exist without Barnabas.

And I don't really consider what Darla and Angel had love. I think the only person that Darla truly loved post-vampire was Connor, but that's just my opinion.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

A clip from DS even appears in the Buffy Season 2 DVD bonus features.

I really need to start watching my Buffy DVDs one day - most are still sitting on the shelf with their plastic still on them. But I don't want to start watching them until I have the time to watch the series all the way through. (And, no, Midnite, I haven't seen those last six episodes from Season 7 yet. But like I say, for me Buffy still hasn't ended until I watch them.  )

In addition to that, one of the writers mentioned DS in a commentary, saying that he "felt Buffy was closer to My So-Called Life than Dark Shadows."

Exactly.

there are a few paragraphs dedicated to DS in Buffy: The Monster Book, though they had a few pieces of incorrect information if I remember correctly.

Imagine that. Though hardly surprising given that incorrect info about DS is pretty much and quite sadly the norm in most books.

[GooberCollins]

If I remember correctly, the clip is in the featurette "Beauty and the Beasts" on Disc 6.

Should I post those few mentions of DS from The Monster Book on here or would that infringe on copyright too much? 

[Taeylor Collins]

I didn't say Barney had a soul.  He was just reluctant! Joss Whedon in my opininon expounded upon that and made Angel much like Barnabas only with a "soul" as his moral compass.

[GooberCollins]

Yes, and I think Angel's conscience was a bit more strict with him than Barnabas's was. It seemed like it only took Barnabas the length of a trip from the docks back to the Old House to forgive himself for killing a random hooker. Actually, unless he's immune to them as a vampire, it's astounding that Barnabas never got an STD of any sort from drinking so much prostitute blood.

[Taeylor Collins]

RE: your last post ROFLMAO GOOBER!!   

I have always wondered about HIV/AIDS and vampires.  Since vampires can't die by human means  I would suspect it is a NON ISSUE.  Most vampires regenerate and heal.   I also was gonna point out how Coppola used ELEMENTS of DS for his version of DRACULA. 

In retrospect, what I was trying to say was that Barnabas caused a DRAMATIC ripple affect, on the whole vampire lore, that we are still seeing 42 years later. TO ME, that speaks VOLUMES about the affect DARK SHADOWS had on pop culture.  I mean we are sitting here at our computer on August 21, 2008 debating a show that has been off the air since 1971. It's extraordinary that this show was the first soap to capture a young audience and continues to attract a young audience who could watch state of the art special  effect programs but they are enamoured with DS.  And it amazes me that even after my being in fandom for 17 years   I continue to enjoy, dissect, and debate DARK SHADOWS and it NEVER gets old for me.  And just think of how many times this show has been brought back from the dead. And all the rules it broke. To be fair DS didn't have as many eps as most soaps like General Hospital(which would be virtually impossible to put on DVD), but there were soaps that probably lasted about as long as 'Shadows but are they on DVD?  NO! No other soap opera has ever been turned into two major motion pictures and now three and possibly a franchise with the new Depp project.  No other soap opera has been brought back as nightime series twice albeit for sort times.  I believe Dark Shadows will be discussed, dissected and watched for thousands of years to come, if the world survives.
 
I hope I am making sense as I am slightly delirious! I have combed through this post for thirty minutes trying to articulate my feelings!  I hope you see where I am coming from cause I am hitting POST!

[Brandon Collins]

I think the comparison between Angel and Barnabas is always brought up because both vampires had a "conscience". Barnabas didn't like what he was cursed into being, and as such he begged his father to end his life so that everyone around him wouldn't end up dying. Meanwhile, Angel was a selfish, evil fiend who killed anything and everything, just for sport, but when his soul was introduced into the equation, he made conscious decisions to change his way of life. Of course he couldn't kill anyone because he'd feel guilty, but he still could've fed off of people without killing them, but chose to drink pig's blood instead.

I read this article a few days back after seeing it posted on Whedonesque. I thought it was definitely interesting, and I'd like to see this guy try to analyze the original DS like he has other shows.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

I have always wondered about HIV/AIDS and vampires.  Since vampires can't die by human means  I would suspect it is a NON ISSUE.

That was certainly Ben Cross' take. It probably won't surprise anyone that when Cross appeared on Joan Rivers' talk show as part of the publicity leading up to the debut of the '91 series, she brought up the AIDS issue. Cross was somewhat taken aback, but his response was that a vampire has his own worries and this world has its own.
 

I hope I am making sense

What you wrote made perfect sense.

[Midnite]

Should I post those few mentions of DS from The Monster Book on here or would that infringe on copyright too much? 

Well, we'd prefer to avoid infringing a copyright, period.    That said, brief excerpts (with citations), paraphrasing when possible, might get by better than quoting long passages.