DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: Taeylor Collins on July 13, 2008, 03:36:01 PM
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I like the concept of the Leviathans. And I actually enjoy some of it. It drags in some area's though.I really like the alter and I think this time peroid yielded some scarry ep's. To spice it up I would brought Quentin back without Amanda though. I would also not given him amnesia. I would somehow linked him into the Levithans. I would have allied him up with Julia and drew out a Levithans/Barney VS Julia/Quentin showdown. Could have been neat I would also brought PETOFI in the mix. IMAGINE having to deal with him and the Levithans. He could have possibly become an ally with Julia and Quentin? Who knows? Any other suggestions from people who liked the story or concept??
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Without changing the original story, I would delete the part where they bring in "the ghost of [spoiler]Peter Bradford" and the demise of Vicki Winters in 1795.[/spoiler] IMO, it was/is a totally useless subplot. I think the ghost of Paul Stoddard haunting Jeb would have been much better!
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That was out of left field and totally ruined perfectly wrapped up storyline!!
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It would have been better if they hadn't forced Vicki and Peter back into the plot. That mini-story made beyond no sense to me!! It seemed like they just made it up on the spot ... Would've made considerably more sense if it was Paul Stoddard's ghost instead of [spoiler]Peter's...[/spoiler]
Oh crap I just realized after I posted that someone else already wrote this (almost verbatim)!! Unfortunately I dont have any other serious problems with the story to put in it's place. I do think that the way Jeb [spoiler]died was sort of siilly. If he was living by "sheer force of mind" after the box was destroyed, I don't see how drowning could kill him anymore than anything else could. The drowning thing seemed like it only applied to his leviathan form, which had already been permanently destroyed...[/spoiler]
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I found the fact that Megan fell in love with the "Child" she raised sort of SORDID and kind of controversial for it's time. The Leviathan leader was one in the same. The changed his diapers and then was kissing him. PRETTY wild stuff!
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Some of what derailed it had to do with other projects that cast members left to pursue. Both Thayer David and Dennis Patrick left halfway through to do movie projects. It was because Dennis Patrick was unavailable that Dan Curtis (or whoever was guiding the plot at the time) came up with that stupid thing with that other ghost.
The other thing that seriously messed it up is that they changed track abruptly twice during the storyline--first, in response to hate mail from fans, they began to make Barnabas more sympathetic and resistant to the Leviathans much earlier than originally planned. And then, again because of hate mail but also, I suspect, because of the shooting schedule for the first movie, the storyline was hastily wrapped up a month or two earlier than originally planned.
I still find Leviathans perhaps the most fascinating storyline just because they really tried to do something different. For all its faults, after Leviathans the stories basically re-hashed what had worked before--the Angelique thing in PT 1970 (which I do love because it was so stylish and had such great scenery-chewing opportunities once they brought the regulars back), the ghosts and possession and Satanism, etc. in Summer of 1970 and 1840.
Nevertheless, I mustn't forget the brief sojourn in 1995. *That* was really bizarre, even by DS standaards! Sy Tomashoff and the crew deserved Emmies for what they did with the sets for those two weeks!
G.
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The Leviathan storyline was fantastic until the writers had to abandon their original plans in response to the hate mail. So right now I'm wondering: how could they have done a better job of bringing Barnabas out from under Leviathan domination? The explanation of Barnabas's evil actions - that he was told that Josette was being held captive - just doesn't hold water. He was too unmitigatedly evil in the the beginning of the Leviathan era. He showed not a trace of reluctance to advance the Leviathan plan. I think a better route would to be have shown him having some very bad dreams in which he kills people he loves for the Leviathans while those people ask him sorrowfully, "Barnabas how can you do this?" And slowly the memory of the dreams seeps into his waking life. I suppose that would have been too gradual a change for the fans, however.
The one not-so-evil act that Barnabas committed before his great turnaround was, apparently, removing Quentin's memory instead of killing him outright. (I say "apparently" because I don't remember Barnabas ever admitting that that was what he had done.) I imagine that at that point the plan of the writers was to make Quentin the hero of the Leviathan storyline, so they couldn't allow Barnabas to kill him and they couldn't allow him to make Quentin a Leviathan follower - but Barnabas's act of mercy didn't fit the person that Barnabas was at the time. I'm thinking that perhaps Barnabas could have been in the course of making Quentin into a Leviathan follower when he was interrupted, and that the interruption inflicted damage to Quentin's mind, causing the amnesia. That's assuming that the powers that be insisted on amnesia for Quentin.
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I agree Goth and Lydia. The 1995 sojourn may have been weird. However, it's my favorite storyline in the final (full year)!
I too think I like the EP's because they were trying to do something "so different" than previously. To me. Set wise, acting wise, story wise when it came back to the present I felt an excitement. NOT THAT 1987 wasn't exciting. I just wish this storyline would have done better and they would have not wrapped up Barney being evil so quick or the storyline in general. ALAS. I still wish Petofi would have somehow been worked in
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No question about it, the majority of us feel that tying Jeb in with Peter and Vicki was an unwanted and an unnecessary twist to the Leviathan story. [ghost_angry]
Aside from that, I do enjoy the Leviathan storyline. It's not my favorite, but it does have enough interesting elements to keep me watching. [ghost_smiley]
I just wish that we could have seen more of Paul Stoddard too. I would have loved to have seen how Elizabeth would have taken to him without the Leviathan influence (she'd still be quite hostile to him for quite awhile I imagine). But as already been mentioned, Dennis Patrick left the show for other projects.
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I'm thinking that perhaps Barnabas could have been in the course of making Quentin into a Leviathan follower when he was interrupted, and that the interruption inflicted damage to Quentin's mind, causing the amnesia.
I like that one. See, with a little thought, all these awkwardnesses could have been improved. I never saw Barnabas as being under total control, though... I guess I thought of it as powerful hypnotic suggestion, where the subject is not supposed to be capable of acts he finds especially abhorrent (on a personal level in this case). As for Josette, I thought of that as a subconscious threat that was there as a backup in case the primary control of Barnabas failed.
How about when we find out the Book says never to kill people?! Let's make a list:
The Book says we play nice
[spoiler]Q not killed in hospital
Blair turns up
Peter Bradford and his wild story... I'm not convinced that Ned Stuart didn't get drunk and put a noose around his neck and make up the whole thing.
Jeb finds true love and gets nice
Josette/Kitty a prisoner[/spoiler]
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How about when we find out the Book says never to kill people?!
The book kind of seems like a page (if you will) to Wicca's BOOK OF SHADOWS and GRIMOIRE! Probably not though. I guess Wicca wasn't tallked about much then!
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"The Book" was inspired by Lovecraft's Necronomicon, particularly as used in the film version of The Dunwich Horror.
The idea of its being in a lost language that only David Collins had the power to read was one of the cleverer twists of the story, I thought.
G.
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The idea of its being in a lost language that only David Collins had the power to read was one of the cleverer twists of the story, I thought.
A few months ago, I saw an episode of the old sci-fi show "Tales of Tomorrow" called "The Children's Room". In the story, gifted children from around the world who possess special genes are being trained to take over the world and make it a more enlightened place. Una O'Connor plays the librarian in the Children's Room, a room that exists only for these special children, where they receive instruction books written in a language that only they can read. When I saw this, I immediately thought of David reading the Leviathan bible. I wonder if any DS writers were familiar with the program (it could have inspired the idea for Tad and Carrie's vanishing playroom too).
ProfStokes
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It's one thing when shows introduce elements of an unlikable character's backstory that make him or her sympathetic. But the way they made Jeb a "sympathetic" character was ridiculous. [spoiler]Oh, so now, all of a sudden, he's a good person, and we're supposed to be sorry for him? And then they tell us that, on top of everything else he did, he killed the series' first heroine, and they still expect us to feel sorry for him? What the heck were the writers thinking? It even continued into Beyond the Shadows, what with Carolyn turning Adam down because she had been truly in love with Jeb? This is writing that belongs on Nickelodeon, not Dark Shadows.
I actually think the way they gave Quentin amnesia was pretty good, especially considering the fact that now, both times we've seen Barnabas drive, he's run over someone! [ghost_cheesy][/spoiler]
And I agree with Taeylor that the Megan and Jeb thing was just pervy and disturbing. But Roger married his grandmother, so stuff like this on DS is hardly uncommon.
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True. EHH...I never thought about that. LOL On that subject. Carolyn and Chris, are they kin. This always confuses me.
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[spoiler]Yes but I don't think either one of them knew it. We only find out when Barnabas goes back to 1897 and learn of Quentin's curse. Chris and Amy Jennings are cousins because their great grand mother was Quentin's daughter.[/spoiler]
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I also agree that the part of the storyline involving Vicki and Peter was totally unnecessary, and, quite frankly, disrespectful to the fans. If you're going to [spoiler]kill off our initial heroine, do it properly, with a story arc devoted to it; don't give us a line that says, "Oh, by the way, Vicki's dead."
Chris and Carolyn are cousins, yes, but distant ones.[/spoiler]
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i'm also a fan of this often maligned storyline.
i appreciated barnabas' return to evil ways and more than that his antagonistic relationship with julia in the early episodes.it was fun to see them squabbling again.
it was very creepy and atmospheric and i loved the antique shop set.in general i'm also quite fond of storylines set in the "present" more than the past.
but yeah the vicki and peter thing was unnecessarily infuriating and by the end it was that kitchen sink storytelling that the show often falls prey to but the first two thirds or so were quite compelling.
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I am enjoying this topic SO MUCH! So glad there are some more LEVITHAN LOVERS out there like me. :)
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That was one of the themes I liked about this storyline too: Barnabas and Julia at odds. IMO Julia Hoffman was the heroine and she was in many of the episodes. It was great to see so much of her! I captured some wonderful pictures from the storyline where the two of them are in a "showdown" but if you look at the picture by itself, as if you didn't know it was from that storyline or that episode where they are at adds, it looks like they're in love. LOL
Here is one of those times they look good together:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/dsbarnabasfan/sigtags/912barn-julia.jpg)
This picture is from Ep. 912, and Barnabas is NOT happy with Julia. It's mutual.
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GREAT PIC. Thanks so very much. YES this too was one of my favorite plot points! It was great to see Julia go toe to toe with Barnabas!
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[spoiler]
Peter Bradford and his wild story... I'm not convinced that Ned Stuart didn't get drunk and put a noose around his neck and make up the whole thing.
[/spoiler]
OK Ned Stuart must have been HAMMERED... for a few days straight, LOL!!
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I wonder if it was DAN CURTIS idea to do this storyline or one of the other writers? Would be curious to know who started the initial DOWNFALL of DS. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Leviathans storyline, I think its DS at it's creepy best. It should have been much more fast paced like 1897 though. Most consider 1897 the best DS storyline so maybe no matter what storyline they went with it wouldn't have worked! Who knows???
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As I understand it, it was Dan Curtis. I agree, the slowing down of the pace was a big mistake.
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I disagree that the 1897 was the best arc, but it was one of the best ones, and the fast pace contributed to that. The Leviathan arc felt at some points like hardly anything was happening.
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As I understand it, it was Dan Curtis.
Indeed. And according to Sam Hall, against the writers' objections.
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Yes, he was inspired by The Dunwich Horror, right?
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As I understand it, it was Dan Curtis.
COOL. Very nice to know it was he who wanted to do it. Which leads me to wonder why no one has ever made HP LOVECRAFTS story into a movie or have they?? OH YEAH...no problem Goober. We all have our favorite storylines. I guess maybe I should say that 1897 was when DS reached the height of it's fame.
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SORRY for the double post...but if I could figure out how to link we could all see what the "LEVIATHANS" might have looked like. It would be extremely scary if it was done with CGI IMO! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu) I am gonna try to link. Here we go!!
YAY IT WORKED. That thang is pretty scary. NO wonder JULIA screamed like never before!!
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There are dozens, if not hundreds, of books, films, and even video games (Alone in the Dark, Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, and Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened are probably the most notable examples) that use Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos as inspiration. Some even believe the mythos to be fact.
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[spoiler]I'm not convinced that Ned Stuart didn't get drunk and put a noose around his neck and make up the whole thing.[/spoiler]
That's the best reason I've heard for it! That was completely ridiculous and I still can't make sense of it. Your idea does make some sense...
[spoiler]...as Ned just disappeared once they come back from 1897. I'm not complaining about that, but he really should have taken his sister with him. Sabrina is without a doubt my least favorite character (her and Amanda, who we also could have done without here). I'm a big Chris Jennings fan and I couldn't even enjoy his scenes during this storyline since Sabrina was always there nagging. [eviltongue]
Overall, the Leviathan storyline has it's entertaining moments, but I don't really dislike it. I can really take it or leave it. They really killed Nicholas Blair, though. He just wasn't the same as he was the first time around![/spoiler]
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There are dozens, if not hundreds, of books, films, and even video games (Alone in the Dark, Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, and Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened are probably the most notable examples) that use Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos as inspiration. Some even believe the mythos to be fact.
Didn't Whedon base his demons sort of on the mythos??? The Old One's and [spoiler]Illyria and Jasmine as well?[/spoiler]
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Yes, all of those were most certainly Lovecraftian.
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Responding to the original idea, i.e. How To Make the Leviathan Storyline Better.
I believe two things would be vital to achieving that. First, Barnabas should have been a reluctant slave to the Leviathans, so that he'd be struggling with them and many of our heroes would be striving to save him. Second, the Leviathan Kid should not have been a total absolute jerk. There was, I believe, an enormous potential for pathos in the story of Jeb, a man who was not a man yet perhaps longed to be precisely that. Yet as originally portrayed, one could not help but wonder what super-masochistic, self-hating streak did Carolyn possess to even date this guy, much less marry him!
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I think that the creature absolutely had to be shown in some way. Once I realized that DS would never do that, the bottom fell out of the whole storyline for me. At the very least, some hint of a creature should have been shown, a disturbing sort of limb in the shadows inside the Room. Don't tell me that someone couldn't have come up with something halfway impressive on a showstring, and lighting and some odd sort of lens could have sold the effect further.
I was fascinated by the beginning of the storyline. It seemed as if these people may be from some other planet or the future. I loved the fact that the scale of this story was so much bigger-- it wasn't just some people in Collinsport endangered, it was the world. My imagination was racing. They should have been as daring with it as I thought they were going to be.
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Great POST Magnus my friend. I thorougly enjoyed it! [ghost_wink]
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Second, the Leviathan Kid should not have been a total absolute jerk. There was, I believe, an enormous potential for pathos in the story of Jeb, a man who was not a man yet perhaps longed to be precisely that. Yet as originally portrayed, one could not help but wonder what super-masochistic, self-hating streak did Carolyn possess to even date this guy, much less marry him!
You and I are completely on the same wavelength here. I've filled up tons of cyberspace through the years with my incredulity over how Carolyn couldn't see Jeb for the cheap, insufferable pig that he was. Not to mention over how she could ignore everything that was beating her over the head with the truth that [spoiler]Jeb murdered her father.[/spoiler]The whole situation from start to finish is beyond acceptance regardless of the level of suspension of disbelief one attempts to employ!
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I thoroughly agree. Jeb was an almost totally unlikable character. What Carolyn saw in him to consider him her "one true love" is beyond me.
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questionable taste,and even worse judgment,in her choice of partners is one of the defining hallmarks of carolyn stoddard hawkes.it's par for the course.
so her choice of jeb here didn't surprise me in the least.
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If you all thought Jeb was a bad mate for Carolyn, how about [spoiler] NED STUART?!!!
In Return to Collinwood they had Carolyn wed to HIM of all people. I realize that they had to do with the actors that were available, but sheesh, if they were going to pair Carolyn up with someone and it had to be with a Roger Davis character there's no reason they couldn't have given him a new character to play. I absolutely could not stand Ned, and thinking back on their first scene together, I can't buy Carolyn even wanting to be in the same room with him ever again, let alone wanting to date and marry him. [/spoiler]
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Ned Stuart may have been a pig, but he at least wasn't the Antichrist.
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IF they would have made the stories pace faster like it was when the story was winding up and if they would have found more to do for Q. It seemed like they didn't know how to utilize him.
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I agree that something more could have been done with the Quentin character. The cursed playboy role was wearing a little thin. I always thought that the Charles Delaware Tate role was something that could have been expanded upon. I basically liked the Leviathan era and found most of the new characters interesting. I wish that Barnabas would have remained 'bad' for awhile longer (sigh).
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Great POST Magnus my friend. I thorougly enjoyed it! [ghost_wink]
Why thank you...!
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I don't know what else they could have done with Tate. I think they went as far as they could have with him.
It did seem that the writers didn't know what to do with the Quentin character once he was brought into the present. I didn't mind the amnesia angle, but the "star-crossed" lovers routine with him and Amanda/Olivia was a bore.
I wouldn't have minded seeing Barnabas be evil for a bit longer too, not only butting heads with Julia but also with Quentin and Chris too, especially Chris. I still think that [spoiler] Barnabas was trying to get the ball rolling to expose Chris when he told Elizabeth to check up on Chris' activities. [/spoiler] I would have liked to have seen him work on that a little bit more and of course, but before he got carried away Julia and Chris could have realized what he was doing and had it out with him.
But viewer response back then just did not take to Barnabas reverting a bit to his old evil ways. Funny how things change over the course of years. Most of us now wouldn't have minded a bit.
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At the time that the Leviathan storyline originally aired, I imagine there was no way for the viewers to know whether Barnabas would continue being evil forever or if he would revert to his normal sweet and lovable self. If the viewers had liked seeing Barnabas be bad again, it might have been months and months before he changed back. At that time, I wasn't able to watch the show regularly so I didn't have a good idea of what was going on, but if I had been able to watch regularly, I probably would have seriously disliked the storyline, whereas now, as I said before, I love the beginning of it, before Barnabas comes to his senses. And I love the slow pace of it, too.
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We'll probably never know for sure, but I suspect that a lot of the viewers who didn't like Barnabas in the beginning of Leviathans had never seen the early Barnabas storyline - they had either come to know him in 1795 before he was cursed, in '68 and/or '69 when he had some relatively admirable qualities, or, and possibly more likely given how popular a storyline it was, during 1897 when he was attempting to save David and Chris and not bent on world domination as in Leviathans. The switch of Barnabas' persona from 1897 to Leviathans would have been striking to those who only knew him from 1897.
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We liked Barnabas. We were pulling for him. It's tough to see your protagonist as the bad guy. For me, in Leviathans it's like the Barnabas I knew and cared about "encased" in something, and invisible from the outside. He's trapped in this possessed cadaver that's walking and talking for the benefit of someone else. I want to jimmy the lock and let him out of there. I can't respond to him as a "villain" because I know better, so he's a prisoner.
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The Leviathan storyline started out really fascinating but then went nosediving!! They ( the writers) never really finished the Maggie/ Barn romance that started and what about the ring he gave her that was supposedly Josette's ring? That went to no man's land. I always hated that the didn't finish that story line. How could they have made it better? Finish storylines!
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They completely dropped the Barnabas/Maggie romance once they went into Parallel Time and introduced Roxanne Drew as another SYT that Barnabas could drool over.
Also Angelique (the RT one) disappeared without a trace once Barnabas and Julia returned from 1995. She wasn't even mentioned as I recall.
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Where do I begin: making Barnabas and Elizabeth patsies to the Leviathans, killing off Vicki, bringing back Peter Bradford- those are some of what went wrong with the storyline.
However, there was something that Curtis and the writers failed to do and I am shocked- yes, SHOCKED no one else has brought up this topic within this discussion: they should've brought back Count Petofi!!! Without a doubt he was the greatest villain DS ever had, and I bet people who watched his firery confrontation with Garth Blackwood at the end of 1897 were looking forward to see him coming to 1969 to raise hell for Barnabas and a returned-to-Collinwood Quentin. After all, Angelique followed Vicki from 1796 to 1968 as Cassandra to get Barnabas for once and for all.
Ideally, Petofi should have come to 1969 with the Leviathans under his control as a way to achieve immortality and get revenge on the Collinses. So why didn't they bring back such a great character? Years ago I heard from a third party that Thayer David had told one of the 'studio fans' in late '69 that Petofi may be coming to the modern-day plotline. Who knows if the story is true, but can you imagine how better things would have been if Petofi were around and there was no Jeb/Bruno/Sky? What might have been. The writers were smart enough to build on the 1795 storyline with Angelique's return as Cassandra, so why not the same for 1897 with Petofi coming to 1969? A real missed opportunity!
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Angelique (the RT one) disappeared without a trace once Barnabas and Julia returned from 1995. She wasn't even mentioned as I recall.
I always figured that she had left Collinsport and found some other distant place to live. Her seemingly happy, quasi-mortal, married life had been ruined and having achieved her revenge against the Leviathans - especially Nicholas - there was nothing left for her to stick around for. Still, it would've been nice had somebody mentioned something about her being gone when Barnabas and Julia returned from PT and 1995. One would think they would've at least wondered where to send a Christmas card.
Gerard
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In Ang's personal timeline, I guess that's the last we see of her.
CE--- Until I got my tapes in 2002, going by my childhood memories, I was absolutely convinced Petofi had appeared in the present. In fact, I remembered heated, anxious discussions (around a table in one of the upstairs rooms, with Julia, Barnabas, maybe Stokes, the Hand in the box beside them) in the present, about the world ending if he ever arrived and got his Hand back from where it was hidden and protected in Collinwood. I didn't even remember seeing Petofi in the past, and when he appeared in 1897, on my tapes, it felt like just a prologue to the more earth-shaking events with him in the present day.
As much as I wanted Petofi there, I'd rather ditch the Leviathans and give Petofi his own story. He would have seemed as shoehorned into Leviathans as Blair did.
Barnabas/Maggie in Leviathans... as important as Barnabas-Josette is to the basic story and mindset of Barnabas, I lost patience when they seemed to throw an echo or retread of that story into later storylines, without any apparent connection to the storyline, with nothing fresh added. Barnabas saw Josette in so many realities (twice in 1897 with two different KLS characters!) and started the mooning process all over again so many times, that it became ludicrous I think. No disrespect intended to anyone who loves the frequent returns to Barn/Josette.
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true,
and because of the brutal,inhuman way barnabas treated maggie when he first arrived on the scene in 1967 i find any and all future implied pairings of the two to be somewhat revolting.
a change in the writing for a character can not undo all of their previous misdeeds.
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However, there was something that Curtis and the writers failed to do and I am shocked- yes, SHOCKED no one else has brought up this topic within this discussion: they should've brought back Count Petofi!!!
No need to feel shocked, Charles, because it did come up in the discussion-- the first instance was in the main topic that started the thread ;):
To spice it up ... Could have been neat I would also brought PETOFI in the mix.
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They could have had Elizabeth return married to a man who looks remarkably like the Count. I'm shocked to think that they didn't do it.
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In a blonde wig calling himself Cassander?
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It would have been better if he had been married to Julia.
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Interesting view!! I do feel if they wanted to rehash this plot it would have been better with it being Julia, yes! I have read the current 1897 post and I am gonna respond when I get my thoughts all together. For some reason or another The Leviathans have been what I have wanted to watch lately. I just finished watching 1968 as I am randomly watching storylines. Alas I have not gotten The Leviathan DVDs yet. I also liked the weird unsyndicated years. They have a certain flavor I like. My point is I thought it would be cool to list some of the more positive things we liked about thise sequence
[spoiler]1.I know it didn't kick off 1970 but it almost did and so I think The Leviathans are very parallel to the weirdness that was the 1970's. Not trying to get too deep here but I think if the viewers had liked it and it had been executed better it could be legendary in the mythos of DS for it's GENUIS instead of what most consider the beginning of the end. :(
2.I loved that the Allmighty Leviathan leader was scarred of the Werewolf. This could have been an amazing plotline if it was fleshed out.
3.Josette appearing to Barnabas and giving him his freedom. A very tender and poignant moment in this sequence. It was time. And the plot line could have always been dusted off had KLS ever returned to the show and also if the show had lasted.
4.The LSD dreams!! [ghost_wacko]
5. JULIA screaming "Don't Touch Me" and giving us one of here greatest screams of the series. She acts like she is truly seeing a Leviathan!! LOVES IT!!
6. ZOMBIES. My favorite ghoul of them all!! ZOMBIES horrify me and I think that is why I love them. Cause they are the only monsters that truly scare the.......out of me. The thoughts of a person being reanimated! :chill: Especially after dead and buried.
7.The zombies kidnapping Julia scene. I LOVE IT now because I know she will be fine!! [ghost_wink]
8."From tycoon to lackey. Oh how the Mighty have fallen" Angelique reading Sky's ass for all it's worth
9. Great special effects when Nicholas dies. (Although I hate that NB was defeated twice. It would have been delicious to have him back had the show lasted!!)
10 I find the episode where Barnabas tells Julia about how the Leviathans brainwashed him(with the flashbacks) to be truly creepy, spooky, and atmospheric. Jon and GH were amazing in these scenes BRAVO!!
11. MEGAN THE VAMP (Enough said)
12. I loooooove the altar. Does anyone know why the serpents were used??
13. I personally think these are some of the most atmospheric ep's ever produced, especially as it heats and the plot pace is faster. It's got that creepy vibe (again) 70's vibe.
14. QUENTIN!! QUENTIN!! Did I mention QUENTIN??
15. Grayson Hall changing her hair. Don't get me wrong I love Julia with all her different hairstyles but it was time for a change
16. Chris Bernau's tight trousers!!!
All I got.. [ghost_tongue2]
Tae
Any thoughts are am I being random....
Any other thoughts guys.
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Where do I begin: making Barnabas and Elizabeth patsies to the Leviathans, killing off Vicki, bringing back Peter Bradford- those are some of what went wrong with the storyline.
However, there was something that Curtis and the writers failed to do and I am shocked- yes, SHOCKED no one else has brought up this topic within this discussion: they should've brought back Count Petofi!!! Without a doubt he was the greatest villain DS ever had, and I bet people who watched his firery confrontation with Garth Blackwood at the end of 1897 were looking forward to see him coming to 1969 to raise hell for Barnabas and a returned-to-Collinwood Quentin. After all, Angelique followed Vicki from 1796 to 1968 as Cassandra to get Barnabas for once and for all.
Ideally, Petofi should have come to 1969 with the Leviathans under his control as a way to achieve immortality and get revenge on the Collinses.
Charles,
I agree with your ideas. Barnabas, by this point, was a sympathetic character to the audience. To return him to his evil ways betrayed the audience and the character. Another important reason I did not like this plot was because it took an essential element that the evil Barnabas had- strength. A Barnabas weak and not in control just didn't work for me.
Petofi reveled as behind the Leviathans would have been great; a shock to Barnabas and a threat hanging over his head. Barnabas could have pretended to be allied with the Leviathans, but working behind the scenes to destroy them. That would have been interesting.
Quentin, with memory intact, aware of Petofi as an enemy, would have added drama. And, of course, no Peter Bradford in sight [ghost_wink]
Nick C.
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I do not mock DS's special effects most of the time. But this arc's Shadow Man is about as hilariously unfrightening as possible.
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I think Barnabas challenged and vulnerable is great. Barnabas invisible isn't. What we were seeing early on in Leviathans wasn't him. He was almost as absent as in 1841 PT.
The serpents were on the cairn because the word leviathan=serpent, even if they weren't exactly serpents really. Close probably.
There would have been absolutely no benefit for Petofi with the Leviathans. Petofi is actually interested in human culture and human history. After the asthmatic cameraphobes take over, does Andreas just sit in his house and listen to records?
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In the 1967 story arc, the curse completely influences barnabas's behavior, while in the Leviathan period, he is being controlled by the leviathans, unable to break free of them. I very much enjoy the two contrasting views.
I agree with other posters who mentioned that [spoiler]that Paul Stoddard's death was sad, and that it would have ben interesting to keep him around to see how he would interact with everyone once they had all been released from the Leviathan influence. His character could really have been interesting.[/spoiler]
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The Leviathan storyline started out really fascinating but then went nosediving!! They ( the writers) never really finished the Maggie/ Barn romance that started and what about the ring he gave her that was supposedly Josette's ring? That went to no man's land. I always hated that the didn't finish that story line. How could they have made it better? Finish storylines!
I think the Leviathon story had to be the worst thing they came up with, notwithstanding the dream curse. EW! And the Adam storyline thing. My, God, man!
I used to tape the shows from Sci-Fi on a daily basis and watch it when I got home from work. It wasn't long before I discontinued taping and went on to other things. I never knew what happened with Barn and Vicky running away. I shuddered when that half-wit doctor shone the sunlight to Barnabas, who was dressed in normal pajamas - for a vampire - come on! I cringed when David hit puberty. Give me the old black and whites, the old days of Jason blackmailing Elizabeth, and Willie covering up his boss's secret.
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Many of my favorite programs have large sections I find unwatchable.
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Same here, Magnus. This atrocious bit of writing and acting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaoy1QKxGQs) comes from one of my other favorites, Death Note. Of course, I find many episodes of series unwatchable not for lack of quality, but for other reasons. The Body, which I personally consider the best episode of BtVS, is one of my least favorites to watch. However, I'm going off-topic here.
The Leviathan arc probably is one of my least favorite arcs, though not my least favorite - that dubious honor goes to 1841PT, followed by 1970PT, with 1840 in third place. I do think it showed tremendous potential - it's too bad that a lot of it went to waste. I could rant about Jeb, and especially Jeb and Carolyn, all day long. [ghost_azn]
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I am totally different. I watch my shows through thick and thin. Charmed had a certain witch in it's final season that I didn't like very much but there was no way I wasn't going to watch it. I had devoted 7 years of my life to the show and I was gonna see it through to the end. And I am so glad I did because there were some GEMS in Season 8.
Back on topic: Even though it is not the greatest, there is just something I like about the Leviathans. I think it has more to do with the atmosphere and the 70's feel than storyline. Although I thought it started out well and fell apart in the middle! It's a shame really because they were not only a threat to the Collins family but to the entire world. What an amazing storyline it could have been.
RE: The Body is top notch television much like Once More With Feeling and Hush. And I don't mind to watching it because the actors really really really delivered. Especially, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Alyson Hannigan and Emma Caufield. [spoiler]To me Anya was the most heartbreaking because she was like a child who didn't understand death. [cryg][/spoiler]
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Strangely enough, when I referred to "unwatchable" storylines, I didn't mean to say that I don't watch them!
Original Star Trek continues to be judged and under-rated because of episodes they had to do to stay on the air, or because of network interference. I watch them all, those I have, but it's a prime example of a program being a favorite, perhaps the favorite, while still having major flaws.
Also the shows that stretch themselves and take risks will inevitably fall on their face once in awhile. I prefer those, to shows (or musicians or film makers or authors) that are solid and consistent in quality but which never "soar" and don't risk alienating the majority.
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Oh, I know what you meant, Magnus. I'll watch those storylines again sometime. Granted, I'll complain the whole way through, but it's not truly unwatchable!
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I remember enjoying the story at the time, largely because so much of it revolved around Carolyn. Never really warmed to the Carolyn/Jeb thing though. I never thought there was any real chemistry between them. Someone else must have thought so too because Barrett and Pennock are never paired off again.
I would have liked to see Sarah make a return appearance to confront Barnabas about his actions with the Leviathans. Sarah could reached Barnabas on a level that even Julia could not have. She could have made him see what he had done and that he needed to make amends for it. A flash forward/what if episode or two showing what would have happened if the Leviathans had succeeded would have made Barnabas' change of direction more credible and compelling.
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My love for The Leviathans has extended to a short story (15 pages) about The Levithans, Angelique, and the Parallel Time Room. It will be in my zine coming out next year. Certain questions I always had about The Leviathans, The Parallel Time room and Angelique helped this story pour out of me. It was a lot of fun writing for Haza and Oberon.
I recently watched those eps again and now am in PT and they are pretty cutting edge; with Fringe doing Parallel Worlds and Supernatural using The Old Ones which they called Leviathans as the big bad this past season.
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Some additional thoughts......
They should have given Quentin a storyline of his own after Amanda is disposed of. Much of what Selby does here could have been done by anyone. A huge waste.
Perhaps Josette could have been the one to break through Barnabas' Leviathan programming. It would have awesome to have Josette's ghost appear to Angelique because she's the only one who can help Barnabas. There's Josette going to Angelique, knowing full well what she is and what she's done but needing her to fight a greater evil. Plus there's Angelique who should have mixed feelings of her own and not just about Josette. There's the conflict between her marriage vows versus her undying feelings for Barnabas. And there's the issue of her powers. It couldn't have been easy for her to give them up. It should be easy for her to get them back.
And, for once, break tradition and let the ingenue know what's going on. Carolyn may have been attracted to Jeb but she would have been horrified to let that he killed her father, let alone what he had planned for her and humanity. Like Maggie, Carolyn could have been a mole, relaying information to screw up their plans. And, at the right moment, Carolyn could have been the one to avenge her father's death, perhaps saying "Uncle Roger was right. You really are a cheap, insufferable pig."
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Once they reintroduce Josette's ghost, they have the problem of addressing why she stopped appearing from the time Barnabas joins DS. Of course, history has now changed somewhat. Maybe in some weird way, it's changed enough that that past isn't a problem in this way anymore. Josette's suicide [spoiler]method is now poison rather than Widow's Hill...[/spoiler] maybe other things are noiw different, and maybe recent history also can be treated as a sort of blank slate now, to be filled in later.