DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '14 II => Topic started by: dom on December 10, 2014, 06:45:13 PM
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Was Vicki's parentage addressed at all in the 1991 Dark Shadows? Was it even an issue?
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I think it was vaguely hinted at. Elizabeth seemed to have more than one reason for bringing Vicki to Maine. But it never became much of a plot point.
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The plan was to explore that storyline in the second season that never was - which is one of the reasons why it was explored in the comics based on the series. The comics revealed that Liz was indeed Vicki's mother.
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Interesting, MB, thanks for your reply. I'll have to research that to see how it played out.
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Honestly, it's been so many years since I've read the comics that I don't remember exactly how it played out. But I still have all the issues...
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I'm hoping to find it spelled out on-line somewhere. I don't usually have good luck with that - but never say die!
I was writing elsewhere yesterday that the biggest mystery really is who the father is - as most of fandom and lore take it for granted that Liz is the mother.
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There's a DS wiki that might have a topic about the Innovation Comics for the 1991 series. They might offer synopses there. I didn't read every issue but I vaguely recall a panel where Liz was reflecting that Vicki was really her own daughter.
Despite all that's been said, I feel the need to repeat that in the original 1960s series, the idea that Liz was Vicki's daughter was most likely a red herring (as we used to say). I personally prefer thinking of Vicki as being the child of Liz because of the chemistry onscreen between the two and some of the dialogue that the scripts gave them. Also, Vicki was much more solicitous of Liz during the first two years than Liz's own acknowledged daughter, Carolyn.
There are various theories of who Vicki's parents were but the most likely are that she was Paul's child by another woman (I personally suspect Betty Hanscombe, but another fan firmly ruled that out; can't recall why). There's no doubt that Alex posed for the portrait of Betty displayed in some 1966 episodes. Amusingly, the portrait shows up later on in a 1967 or '68 episode in Sam's studio.
G.
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There was an interview with Joan Bennett in which she did admit that, if the character of Vicki had hung around (it appears "Icky Vicki" killed that), it was to be revealed that Elizabeth was, indeed, Victoria's mother. I once found the recorded interview on-line; maybe google-search it.
Not to bring it up again, but in my version of what-if-DS-had-continued, accepting what Miss Bennett had said, I had a storyline where Vicki returns (again, I took liberties and had, after several years, Alexandra Moltke return to the series). In my WIDSHC, Elizabeth fesses up. Using flashback scenes, she reveals that as a 15-year-old in 1932, she and her younger brother sail to Europe with their father Jamison (and their governess with whom Jamison was having an affair - what a cad). On the ocean liner, she meets a dashing 17-year-old with whom she begins a shipboard romance. But once they dock in Le Havre, she doesn't see him again. Well, she does, in 1944 when she serves as a WAC in New York City. Their romance reignites and in Spring of 1944, she discovers that he is to be shipped out. They consummate their love before he goes. He is killed in the Normandy Invasion. She is pregnant. When her parents find out, to prevent a scandal, they have her kept in NYC. She wants to keep the baby, but they will have none of it. But the Collins', always wanting to do the upright thing, decide to support the baby. Elizabeth gives birth in the cold, winter days of 1945. She's allowed to hold her baby once. To demonstrate her resilience to her uptight parents, she names the baby Victoria - "victory." The woman hired by the Collins', having a moment of compassion before she deposits the baby by the doors of the foundling home, includes the note written by Elizabeth: "Her name is Victoria..." Because of the winter of 1945, Victoria is given by the orphanage the last name of "Winters."
Gerard
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Since the clear implication of most of what we we hear in 1966 is that ECS is her mother, I imagine the answer would have been something else. Look at how most of us expect that to be the answer... so how much of a surprise would it have been?
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Gerard, I love your story. Beautiful concept.
Thinking about the character of Vicki I sort of feel that the character never really existed in the DS Universe after 1968. In both the 1991 and 2004 Shadows iterations, she's the actual reincarnation of Josette (this is certainly heavily implied in the scene MB is showing us now from 2004). In the Burton/Depp film, Vicki truly doesn't exist; the name is only an alias.
There was something very special about the character of Vicki during the first year of the series. I'm very grateful that we now have the episodes from that period to enjoy and contemplate the true beginnings of our beloved story.
G.
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Before I saw 1966, when my viewing started up again in 2002, Vicki seemed to me to be someone with intelligence and sense with the capacity to figure out things, which for some reason had been switched off. A smart, centered person who nonetheless hasn't got a clue. Contradiction like these are irritant factors. As a child, I just disliked Vicki. She was little miss sensible who was out of the loop, as most "very sensible" people have always seemed to me. Stodgy.
From 2002 on, after getting my tapes of DS, Vicki seemed very likeable, but always missing the point. It did seem as if there was a clueful Vicki out there somewherre, probably in the dim, misty, mysterious early days of DS that I hadn't seen. That turned out to be true, after I finally saw 1966-7 in 2011.
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Gerard, thank you so much for sharing the details of your story. It's just lovely, besides fitting all the facts. I can see it all happening in my mind's eye. Jamison is a cad, but I guess with Quentin as a role model.....
Just on a personal note, my mother was a WAC also during WWII--but not in NYC.
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In response to Gothick's question regarding Betty Hanscombe, I've been re-watching the early episodes recently, and, if I recall correctly, Sam Evans said that she died about 25 years before 1966. So based on Vicki's age, which is about 20 at that time, she couldn't possibly be Vicki's mother.
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WHAT IF Elizabeth's parents started a Collins-face-saving rumor that Betty Hanscombe was Vicky's mother? They could have exploited a passing similarity between Elizabeth and Betty (a nickname for Elizabeth). They could have paid Betty to go away and not return. And nobody outside the family (such as Sam Evans) would know the truth.
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The former butler, B. Hanscombe (Betty's brother) could have been Vicky's father and Elizabeth Vicky's mother.
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And all this time I thought the Hanscombe butler was Betty's father. [santa_rolleyes]
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in terms of the 1991 series Elizabeth was written as such a nonentity, and Vicki's orphaned backstory merely a passing reference, I never understood what the "emotional impact" of the Liz-as-Vicki's mother "reveal" was supposed to have had. in this iteration of the story Vicki functioned mainly as the modern day "Josette" counterpart. her backstory and parentage were somewhat beside the point.
this theory also introduces the rather icky bug-a-boo of Barnabas and Vicki being blood relations albeit several generations apart.
if this revelation had indeed taken place in a second season it seems more like one of Curtis' clumsy attempts to retroactively "fix" what he saw in hindsight as flaws in the original narrative.
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Truthfully, one of the main reasons DC did the '91 series was so that he could fix what he perceived to be flaws in the original series. For example, that sort of thinking on his part was the primary reason Vicki explicitly became Josette's reincarnation.
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i can see Curtis' desire to retroactively "fix" what he perceived as flaws in his original story. and certainly fans of the OS coming to the 1991 version wanting "resolution" on this particular plot point might have taken some comfort in this "reveal"...
but as a stand alone series, and for a new viewers coming in "cold", I don't see what dramatic impact this "revelation" would have had as the narrative stood. or even if it makes any sense. the fact that Vicki was an "orphan" was mentioned in passing as a nod to original story. but it wasn't a major plot point by any means. and I don't recall the reason she came to Collinsport being a search for that answer. no sooner did she arrive than Barnabas was released from his coffin and she just became the "new" Josette. the "mystery" surrounding her parentage wasn't even a factor in the story.
and who was Elizabeth? this lady who poured tea, threw costume parties and spoke with a British accent for no apparent reason??? the character was written as a nonentity with no backstory to speak of. so in terms of the story at hand (again with no associations with the OS) what difference does it make if she suddenly announced she was Vicki's mother??? what does that bring to the story???
I don't see the importance of it. [santa_undecided]
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and apart from an ordinary desire for "resolution" of a major story thread left dangling the reason this particular plot point is still so important to fans for all these year was the warmth and chemistry Joan and Alexandra brought to their time together on the series. that's where the "emotional impact" is. those performances. otherwise "Elizabeth" and "Vicki' are just names typed into a script.
and for me the reason this plot point will always remain open to me is we never got to see Joan and Alexandra play those scenes. it was never resolved on the OS...
so all the comic books, audiodramas and festival skits in the world doesn't provide that "closure" at least for me.
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and for me the reason this plot point will always remain open to me is we never got to see Joan and Alexandra play those scenes. it was never resolved on the OS...
so all the comic books, audiodramas and festival skits in the world doesn't provide that "closure" at least for me.
I agree. Anything that didn't play out in some way on the original DS isn't canon when it comes to that version.
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Fans are so acutely aware of the issue that the only way to work into the story that they are mother and daughter would be to slip it in in an underplayed way. Perhaps the two of them had developed a shared mutual silent understanding over the years, and then a new event causes it to be spoken. If DS had continued into the 70s, social changes might have made it more acceptable to admit to the circumstances.
The alternative would be a storyline in which there is some clever twist on it all that would actually surprise and stun us, in a satisfying way. Fans are unlikely to come up with anything that good, I'd think, though I don't know DS fanfic.
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I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons that DS fandom has had such longevity is that so many questions were left unanswered. Elizabeth being Vicki's mother is certainly plausible. And I do like the idea much better than Marilyn Ross' proposed story to make her Barnabas' daughter.
But, as nothing was stated on the actual program, it will always remain an enigma.
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i've always figured she was Elizabeth's daughter myself. all the bread crumbs we did get on the show is why i think that. it's been a long time since i last saw the 91 show so i can't say i remember much about it, but i do enjoy it to be honest, after all that's how i got introduced to the show back when that was 1st on in (1991)
what i really wanted Dan Curtis to Answer is where the storyline would have taken had Alexander M. not left the show. would they have revealed that at some point. and i believe he was asked this but from stuff i've read
through the years he never did answer it. i dunno if he remembered anymore or just wanted the fan to keep guessing or both. and it has been awhile since i was last on here. i got a new computer in Early (2014) and this site was bookmarked on that one. but thinking about DS recently i couldn't remember the name of it. i had to do some digging and look up what my screen name was and so forth. and here i am. as for my collection
well i still only have 5 Volumes to get and than i'll have the whole show.
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Welcome back, B.Collins!! [ChristmaS15] [ChristmaS15]
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Great to see you back, B.Collins!
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thank you both of you. i looked back at the last post i made before last nite's and it was made in (2013) July in fact and i didn't realize it had been THAT long since i was last posting on here. i've been modding on another site in fact. it's a warez site but i enjoy it. recently they promoted me to being a Super mod on there in fact.
anyways i haven't watched DS in awhile i guess i have't been in the mood for it. i'm weird like that i have to be in the mood to watch something, to read something, or to listen to something. i'm weird like that lol.
and i've been watching Supernatural lately. great show by the way. anyways, if it makes you feel any better i also belong to a Stephen King Website as well. it's a fan site pretty much and other than me posting on there the other nite. i hadn't been on there in months either. so it's not just this wonderful site. i was also looking how long ago i joined on here. and apparently it's been as of this year in i think August it'll be 9 years! man it sure doesn't feel that long. anyways as for the show like i said i've always thought that Vicki was another Collins,
sure you can argue and say she isn't. cause it's kinda like tossing a coin in the air. on one hand you can say no she isn't. cause the writers made you not want to think that. and gives you evidence that she's not. than the other side of the coin is she is. and i think the evidence is more higher on that end in my book.
i wish Dan Curtis would have said at some point yes she is a Collins instead of saying well she may have been. and gave the impression that so many years had passed since the show had aired and yes that does happen with time don't get me wrong. and i may even be wrong on what he said through the years i admit that. but from the interviews i've read that's how i read it. no doubt there's a lot of them i haven't read.
as i like to say you can correct me if i'm wrong of course i don't mind.