Will the REAL Angelique please stand up!

[FireRose]

Perhaps there was another reason for the 1840 Angelique scene. Had Dark Shadows not been canceled it could have been that the story would have taken a turn that Angelique manipulated events and that's how Bramwell and Catherine ended up together.

Angelique was a witch and just because one storyline said she no longer was evil. Didn't mean she wouldn't have been again.

When has a soap opera ever let the character's live happily ever after?

FireRose

[Joeytrom]

Actually when Barnabas first sees Angelique in 1840, he is horrified to see her when he shouldn't have been. The last time they dealt with each other they were in a cordial relationship.  he should have been happy that she was there so she could help him fight Judah Zachary.  Though there is also the fact that she doesn't remember anything chronologically post 1840, which is another discrepancy.

It would probably have been better to use the Judah Zachary story in the present time and avoid 1840 and time travel altogether.  By this time, I was tired of every story taking place in another time period and just wanted to see the present time characters I was familiar with for the past few years.

[Cassandra Blair]

Actually when Barnabas first sees Angelique in 1840, he is horrified to see her when he shouldn't have been. The last time they dealt with each other they were in a cordial relationship.  he should have been happy that she was there so she could help him fight Judah Zachary.  Though there is also the fact that she doesn't remember anything chronologically post 1840, which is another discrepancy. 

When Barnabas meets up with Angelique in 1840, I think it's at least implied that she hasn't experienced the events of 1897 and the late 1960's early 70's.  He's encountering an Angelique that hasn't seen him since he was chained in the coffin in 1795/96.  The writers kind of goofed with this, because so much of what the characters had been through in earlier storylines had involved the witch, and now they were essentially rewriting the history of the main timeline of the show (if you follow).

I for one never really bought into the idea that Barnabas really loved Angelique in the 1840 storyline.    And it was a real slap in the face to viewers who knew the whole tragic story.  Some have theorized that maybe Barnabas told her he loved her so that in death (this time anyway) her spirit would find rest and not trouble the folks at Collinwood any longer.

My guess is that the writers pulled the Angelique redemption story out of their hats in order to make the paring of Jonathan Frid and Lara Parker more palatable to viewers in the upcoming Bramwell/Catherine story, and just didn't care to think about the ramifications of Barnabas and Angelique actually being together as lovers, 'cos it would likely never have happened.  Remember, JF allegedly refused to play Barnabas any longer. 

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Remember, JF allegedly refused to play Barnabas any longer.

...
Actually, it's not that Frid didn't want to play Barn anymore. He didn't want to play Barn as a vampire anymore...

[Joeytrom]

If Frid just didn't want to play Barnabas as a vampire, but would play the role as a normal man, why did they bother with 1841 PT for?  They should have returned to 1971 and tie up all the loose ends.

I always thought 1841 PT was written for the purpose of having JF play a different character as he threated to leave DS if they did not give him another character to play.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

I always thought 1841 PT was written for the purpose of having JF play a different character as he threated to leave DS if they did not give him another character to play.

That's true. As I went on to say in the post I quoted from:

...
- and he wanted to be able to play characters other than Barn. He got to do the latter when he played Bramwell - but who knows what might have happened with the former had DS continued past 1841PT...

[PennyDreadful]

   I do think Barnabas truly loved Josette.  She was the love of his life.  His love grew into a deeply unhealthy obsession, but it started with true love IMO.

   However, I also believe he had feelings for Angelique as well.  Of course, after she unleashed her vengeance on him and his family, he loathed her... but not completely.  There is sometimes a fine line between love and hate.  I think part of him still had feelings for her.  Although these feelings were seemingly those of pure sexual attraction at one time, we can't be certain that's all there was to them.  He obviously felt a great, positive passion towards Angelique at one time, but these feelings soon turned to hatred because of her actions against his family.

    The course of events in 1840 lead to a change of heart on Barnabas' part; he said he loved her as she died in his arms.  As much as some might choose to ignore it, this happened and it was a very sad, powerful scene.  I don't deny that Barnabas felt love for her at the time.  I also think, despite Angelique's obsession and desire to control, at the heart of it, she actually did love Barnabas.  He wronged her badly early on, and she had the power to get revenge (although her revenge went way too far).  Angelique isn't completely evil and neither is Barnabas.  The relationship between the two is a comlex one.    

  Out of all the characters on DS, they are the most alike in many ways.  They are both extremely passionate, both will do whatever it takes to get what they want, and they are both prone to obsession.  However, they are TOO much alike.  Mixing fire and gasoline will result in a fiery, heated explosion.  Yes, the fire will burn brightly, but it will also be very destructive.  Even though Barnabas and Angelique are actually a matched set in many ways, they are both too volatile to be with one another.  Something would inevitably go wrong at some point.  There is too much jealousy, emotion and past history with those two.  That's what makes their relationship so great.  It's not the clear cut Barnabas = good guy and Angeliquie = bad guy scenario.  There's more to it than that.

  So, while I don't think the result of Barnabas & Angelique's reconciliation in 1840 would have lasted in the long run, I also don't deny that it was genuine either.  Angelique did alot of horrible stuff to Barnabas because she was hurt by him, still loved him despite that, and felt witchcraft was her only means of getting him to see things her way.  I certainly don't think Barnabas deserved that degree of punishment, but such "passions can grow into monsters" if they are uncontrolled.   Emotion is a funny thing - it's not black and white.  

~Penny Dreadful~

[Cassandra Blair]

That's an interesting assessment, PennyDreadful, and it's believable, given the circumstances.  Despite what awful things Angelique did to Barnabas, perhaps he did still have feelings towards her.  They never could leave each other alone, could they?  And given the fact that Barnabas managed to do some pretty horrible things himself, perhaps he felt empathy towards Angelique, and found it easier to forgive her than others might have done.  She gave her life to save him (and others), so certainly she was deserving of some tenderness at the end.  It is a very moving scene.

[stefan]

I also think, despite Angelique's obsession and desire to control, at the heart of it, she actually did love Barnabas.

Well, you're being very charitable here. In additional to Angelique's obsession and desire for control she was also a cold blooded murderess and liar. Given what kind of a person she was and how corrupted she became with her own power I would say Angelique was not capable of love in the normal sense. You can't "love" someone and be responsible for the deaths of someone's mother, sister and uncle. I don't see how this could be forgiven and the fact Barnabas had been attracted to Angelique and possibly contributing to the carnage must have made Barnabas loath himself all the more.

The writing for Angelique was brilliant in that it was schizophrenic. There were indications Angelique cared for Barnabas. It didn't appear that the possibility of Barnabas loosing his inheritance over marrying Angelique changed her feelings towards him. But, it also never appeared Angelique cared for money in any sense except that it would make her better than Josette, or at least competitive. After acquiring Josette's fiancee I guess her need for money vanished. But, her altruism in this instance didn't stop Angelique from manuvering Joshua into giving her money to leave Collinwood after Barnabas' death.

I love the scene where - after Angelique places a curse on Vickie causing Vickie to run from her room when Trask was performing his exorcism - Barnabas, worried and concerned, questions Angelique over her whereabouts during the exorcism, Angelique lies and tells Barnabas she was in the sewing room, but Barnabas heard her mumbling "strange words" in her old room. Oh, no..she sais...I was in the sewing room. Barnabas looks at her suspiciously. Angelique does look a little worried. Barnabas, flustered and upset walks away - afterwards you see a casual Angelique finishing her Vickie curse by contributing that burning is the proper punishment for witches as was the old customs. Nice lady, this Angelique. I guess it's not enough Vickie gets punished for a crime Angelique is guilty of but Angelique's sadism demands an even more excruciating death for an innocent girl. Vickie's only crime being that she is young and pretty and Angelique's obsession and desire for control didn't care for that at all and, of course, there's always the convenience of Vickie's death taking away any suspicion from Angelique as the real witch.

[PennyDreadful]

Nice lady, this Angelique.

 Believe me, I don't think Angelique is remotely "nice."  She can be horribly vicious and evil.  However, she is not entirely evil, and like many of the DS characters (supernatural or otherwise) she IMO is clearly capable of falling in love - but I agree, her version of love is a bit off.  Like many of the DS characters, she's kind of messed up in the head and has a really skewed way of looking at things.  For Angelique, and many DS characters (and heck the gothic genre in general) love and unhealthy obsession go hand in hand.

   I find it interesting that many of the supernatural characters on DS were capable of falling in love, often to their detriment.  It really humanized them to some degree. I think the only completely rotten to the core supernatural DS character was probably John Yaeger, who was supposed to be the absolute, pure essence of evil.  Judah Zachery was really terrible too, but I believe even he had a soft spot for Miranda at one time.

~Penny Dreadful~ 

[Miranda]

Personally, I love that scene because I believe that Barnabas and Angelique are true soul mates.  I also believe that Barnabas never really loved Josette.  If he truly felt that Josette was the great love of his life, then why was he sneaking around with Angelique?  I feel that he viewed Josette as the ideal woman for someone in his social position, and over the years, built her up into a mythical creature.  I believe that Angelique was the one he really wanted, and that Josette was the one he felt that he should want.  The irony, and the power, of that scene between B and A is that if Barnabas had recognized his true feelings in the first place, he would have saved himself and everyone else a great deal of pain and suffering.

  Claude North, I absolutely agree with what you said, I think Barnabas was in some ways emotionally repressed, though it does not seem like he was in Martinique, and that he was perhaps somewhat afraid of the passion, etc feelings that Angelique brought out in him.  I do think he loved Josette, but not in the way he grew to love and underneath it all always cared for Angelique. Barnabas would have had a happy if rather dull life with Josette, with Angelique his life would have never been dull, as has been said of other volatile couples, there would have been fights, but the making up would have been all the more sweeter. I still think Angelique is the best soulmate for Barnabas.

[Midnite]

While watching the 1795 flashback, I definitely felt that Barnabas truly loved Josette. I also got the impression that the fling he had with Angelique was before he and Josette had much interaction, before he fell in love with her (Josette).

When A confronted B in his room on her first night in America, he confessed that he had already fallen for Josette at the time of their affair but was unsure of her (Josette's) feelings toward him.  A transcript containing that exchange follows.  (Me type fast.  )

I don't think it was love Angelique felt for Barnabas as much as it was pure obsession and the need to possess and control. Not only that, but she also very much desired to be above her "station" and Barnabas certainly would've provided that (did, in their very brief marriage). I don't think her feelings for Barnabas were based love (not genuine love anyway). She couldn't stand getting burned. She couldn't stand the fact that he rejected her and chose Josette (someone she was already plenty envious of because of Josette's wealth and status).

I noticed that she doesn't express love toward Barn here even after he confronted her about it, and like you I wonder if her obsession with him was largely BECAUSE he was engaged to Josette.  And interestingly, Angelique doesn't admit to having any expectations about taking Josette's place; on the contrary, she seems prepared to assume the role as his mistress.  (Blaming him for making her love him is just lame.)

BTW, he's not nearly this cold in their subsequent scene together in HER room.

He wronged her for sure, but then again the punishment sure didn't fit the crime.

I couldn't agree more.  I'll even go so far as to say that I think he's a total bastard in this scene:
BARNABAS:  (knocking)  Who is it?

ANGELIQUE:  (playfully) A ghost from your past.  Close the door.  Quickly!

B:  Angelique.

A.  I waited for this moment all day long.  (she holds out her arms, but there's no response) You do not remember?

B:  I remember.

A:  I waited in my room.  You didn't come.  So here I am.  (reacting to his indifference) I'll have not your pride.  I have no reason for pride.  Oh, hold me.  (she embraces him)

B:  (without emotion) Angelique.

A:  After you left our island, I would wake up at night, hearing you say my name.  Did you think of me at all?

B:  Yes.  I-I did.

A.  Tell me.  (embraces him again) Hold me tighter and tell me.

B:  (pained)  No.  (pushes her away)

A:  Why, you do not think me pretty any more?

B:  Yes, of course you are, but... You see, it was a mistake.  (unsure of his next line) Oh, I know it was wrong to say it this way, but, well, it's my fault.  I know it was my weakness to...

A:  (wounded) ... love me.

B:  I love Josette.

A:  (angry) But you came to me.

B:  I am sorry.

A:  For what?  For making me love you?

B:  You do not love me.

A:  You can tell me how I feel?

B:  Oh, I'm sorry.

A:  Today, when you opened the door, I thought you were glad to see me.

B:  I was.

A:  You are honest now?

B:  Yes.

A:  Then you are glad I am in this room.  (embraces him)

B:  Josette is coming.

A:  She's not here yet.

B:  (pulls away) But she's going to be.

A:  You're so different here.  You're as cold as that wind outside your house.

B:  I am not cold, but I want to be.  I have to be.

A:  Why?

B:  Because, Angelique, I didn't know that we were going to be married then.  To be honest, I thought I was in love with Josette but I didn't realize she was in love with me.  But now that we've written, (pause) well, you and I... It's impossible.

A:  Are you sad about it?

B:  What good will it be to admit that?  We both have different roles to play now.

A:  And what is mine?  The Countess' maid?  You knew me as I really am.  I am no one's servant but yours.

B:  No.

A:  Yes.  I am your servant.  You are my master.  That is the way it works.  That is the way it is to be.

B:  No, Angelique.

A:  (pulls back bitterly)  You will see!  (flees from room)

[Barnabas'sBride]

The mistress line is an excellent point, one that I completely forgot about for some reason. Still though, she may say she would be satisfied with being his mistress, but I don't think she would. Angelique isn't the type to settle for anything less than what she wants. Even in those times when she tried to trap Barnabas into marrying her, he basically tells her he would never love her and she ignores it because she could claim him at least, but yet I got the impression that she always believed he would come to love her. She would settle for what she could get at first, but she would always try to make more out of what she got, if that makes sense.

At first, I think she would be accepting of a role as his mistress, but once he actually married Josette I think she would've set out to get rid of Josette regardless. In the end, she would never have been able to tolerate Josette's position in his life. His legitimate wife, the mother of his children...

[IluvBarnabas]

It would probably have been better to use the Judah Zachary story in the present time and avoid 1840 and time travel altogether.  By this time, I was tired of every story taking place in another time period and just wanted to see the present time characters I was familiar with for the past few years.

No way would I eliminate the 1840 period from the show...or 1795 or 1897 for that matter.

I know a lot of folks weren't too hot about the show jumping backward in time (or sideways aka Parallel Time or forward in time in 1995) most of the time but I've never made any secret of the fact how much I love it when the characters
go back in time. If nothing else, the period stories gave Joan Bennett and Louis Edmonds much more airtime than they usually got in the present day aside from the first year.

I don't mean to say the present day stories weren't good. A good majority of them were entertaining. The Quentin/Beth haunting was great, I liked the dream curse, loved it when Angelique got turned into a vamp, enjoyed the Leviathans and have grown to appreciate and enjoy the first year much more than I had before.

[MagnusTrask]

The "present day" has always been just too bland and matter-of-fact to me, not only in DS, but in real life from the 60s onward.   The Head works much better in atmospheric 1840 (though it seems more like 1897) and in general I think 1840 was DS's last hurrah, where it got itself together to do one more good storyline after several with much bigger difficulties.   DS and J Frid in particular seem to "wake up" or spring to life in a past storyline, no pun intended.

I wouldn't want to stay in the present just to avoid time-travel complications or Barnabas briefly falling for Ang.  That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater I think.