Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"

[Lydia]

Barnabas had NO idea if Carl played an important role in the future of the Collins.

And how do we know that Carl's murder didn't change things?  Here's a theory that I've considered:  Victoria Winters was the granddaughter of Carl Collins through his illegitimate daughter Betty Hanscombe.  Previously in this Forum, Vlad suggested that Vicky was Jamison's granddaughter through Betty.  The following quote provides the details:

Victoria Winter's Parents

If Vicky was Carl's granddaughter, and Carl was murdered before Betty's conception, then Vicky shouldn't have existed.  I can imagine the Moderators of Time - Mysterious Malefactor, Badnite, and Bomb - meeting and deliberating at length on how to deal with this problem.  Finally they come up with a solution:
[spoiler]The Leviathans will dispose of Vicki.[/spoiler]
Mysterious Malefactor, persnickety as usual, argues that this does not completely solve the problem, but Badnite and Bomb overrule him because they don't want to be late for Happy Hour at the Blue Whale.

Meanwhile, I keep thinking about the issue of killing a member of your own family.  This whole blood kin thing - does it really apply to a distant cousin whom you barely know?   ("Murder's like sex: it's OK as long as you don't do it with your relatives.")  When my third cousin once removed (literally), whom I wouldn't recognize if I saw him on the street (but then, I have no memory for faces), opened a restaurant, I took friends out to dinner there to spread the word about my cousin's restaurant.  So I feel the whole family thing, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

And, finally, I wish to state that when I was a young, sensitive, and stupid teenager, Rachel's death shocked me in a way that Carl's death never did.

[Nancy]

You think so? 

Would make one hell of a Jerry Springer episode, wouldn't it?

Nancy

I know it would scar my personality beyond recognition.

[Midnite]

Board description for Current Talk:

Read the latest DS storyline topics or those directly related to the show itself (including past, present or future incarnations) that people are talking about!

Just thought I'd point that out before any more spoofs of other fans get posted.  

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Previously in this Forum, Vlad suggested that Vicky was Jamison's granddaughter through Betty.  The following quote provides the details:

Victoria Winter's Parents

For some odd reason most of that topic is no longer displaying, though the missing posts ARE in the database. One of these days I really do have to figure out why that is...

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Definitely some interesting points have been raised. But at the risk of being persnickety (), I'm not so sure one can say that post-curse (or rather curses) Barnabas evolved into a decent guy - at least not until perhaps the 1840/41 storyline. People who are considered to be marked by moral integrity, kindness, and goodwill and who conform to the standards of propriety don't influence others to kill themselves as Barn would do post-1897 to Sky at the end of Leviathans (no matter how satisfying that action may have been to the audience - though personally I honestly think Sky should have been given a medal and the residents of Collinsport should have built a statue in the town square to honor the fact that Sky was the one who finally got rid of Jeb - but maybe that's just me  ).

Also, it's no secret that there were people who thought sending out lynch mobs and/or taking justice into their own hands was generally acceptable. But I suspect there were just as many if not more who thought those practices were wrong, and that the people who thought it was acceptable were looked down upon by civilized people - not lauded for their behavior. And there's no evidence that 1795/96 Barn thought it was generally acceptable. In fact, quite the contrary. For example, Barn was an extremely vocal advocate for Vicki being allowed to be judged innocent unless or until she was found guilty. If Barn, or anyone in the Collins family had wanted frontier justice and to settle the matter on their own, they could have killed Vicki and been done with it instead of dealing with the spectacle of a public trial. (Though, of course, they would have killed the wrong person, which is the real danger of taking justice into ones own hands - but that's an entirely different point...)

One of the most interesting things about Barn is that post-curse he exhibits an arrogance that's not much in evidence pre-curse. stefan makes an intriguing point that post-curse Barn became a complex and permanently traumatized individual. But then, given his life experience, who wouldn't have been that way? Though that being said, there's certainly a distinction between a complex/traumatized guy and good/decent guy. 

[BuzzH]

One of the most interesting things about Barn is that post-curse he exhibits an arrogance that's not much in evidence pre-curse.

You are correct sir.  1795 Barnabas was a very sweet, sensitive, rather NAIVE young man.  But after everything that happened to him, [spoiler]Josette & Jeremian running off to get married behind his back, finding out his wife was the witch responsible for all the bad things that had happened to him, including the deaths of his beloved sister, uncle, mother and fiance, not to mention being killed/cursed himself) etc...[/spoiler]he definately developed an edge to his personality and didn't easily trust others, and with good reason.

[MagnusTrask]

Oops... it's nearly all spoilers for me now.  (Anything made in 1968)    So to amuse myself I'll just....

 

 

 

[Jackie]

Even before Carl, Barnabas showed that he was capable of harming a member of his own family. [spoiler]When he found David's knife in the mausoleum secret room, Barnabas foolishly jumped to the conclusion that David knew his secret and wanted to kill him. Had Sarah not intervened, David might have been a dead kid[/spoiler] and I know I could never forgive anyone, real or fictional, for harming a child.

That's very true and just knowing that tidbit, one would think Barnabas could easily kill another family member without a second thought.  But much had changed between that time and when he went to 1897.  He learned more about his powers, how he could control others without killing them.  He experienced being human again, finding his humanity and was on the road of redemption.  He specifically went to the past to save the family, David in particular.  He had no idea if the changes he made would change history.

Someone suggested that the writers were looking for a dramatic plot twist, had something lined up to cause the story to go into another direction.  Well, I admit that [spoiler]Carl's killing[/spoiler]was a catalyst for more to happen.  I just wasn't pleased with it and feel it was unnecessary.[/size]

[Jackie]

But, in all fairness, [spoiler]Roger killing that man was an accident, he didn't DELIBERATELY mow him down.  Now, PT Roger DID kill Angelique, Carolyn and Liz.[/spoiler]

And let's not forget [spoiler]Gabriel also killed his father Daniel, PT Gabriel tried to kill Daphne and only Bramwell's fortunate arrival saved her, Melanie tried to kill Catherine w/a knife when she was under the influence of the cursed room and Bramwell was all set to kill Morgan in that dual until Catherine told him she'd kill herself if he did.  He for sure kicked Morgan's ass the first time he tried to marry Catherine, going so far as to knock him into unconsciousness.  Oh, and PT Quentin (1841) went to prison for seven years for killing a man in a brawl at The Eagle[/spoiler]

EGADS, what a messed up family.... throughout history! LOL

 

[BuzzH]

That's very true and just knowing that tidbit, one would think Barnabas could easily kill another family member without a second thought.  But much had changed between that time and when he went to 1897.  He learned more about his powers, how he could control others without killing them.  He experienced being human again, finding his humanity and was on the road of redemption.  He specifically went to the past to save the family, David in particular.  He had no idea if the changes he made would change history.

You're echoing my thoughts exactly.  I did forget however that "technically" Barnabas [spoiler]killed his Aunt Abigail, although really she had a heart attack when she saw him rise out of his coffin at dusk.  So does that count as murdering a family member when really he didn't *actually* kill her, just inadvertantly caused her death from fright?[/spoiler]

[IluvBarnabas]

I wonder if Barnabas would have [spoiler]wounded up killing Abigail if she hadn't died of fright. He did say he would do anything to keep from being discovered.[/spoiler]

[Jackie]

That's very true and just knowing that tidbit, one would think Barnabas could easily kill another family member without a second thought.  But much had changed between that time and when he went to 1897.  He learned more about his powers, how he could control others without killing them.  He experienced being human again, finding his humanity and was on the road of redemption.  He specifically went to the past to save the family, David in particular.  He had no idea if the changes he made would change history.

You're echoing my thoughts exactly.  I did forget however that "technically" Barnabas [spoiler]killed his Aunt Abigail, although really she had a heart attack when she saw him rise out of his coffin at dusk.  So does that count as murdering a family member when really he didn't *actually* kill her, just inadvertantly caused her death from fright?[/spoiler]

Spoiler contents within:

Yes Barnabas was an unscrupulous fiend after he became a vampire in 1795. [can't be a spoiler since EVERYONE knows that ] Frightening Abigail to death didn't alter the future since Barnabas was living in the present, his present.  Would he have killed her by strangulation or just bitten her?  He was definitely going to "stop" her from talking.  He also put his hands around his father's neck, implying he was going to strangle him too, but Joshua removed Barnabas' hands.  If the vampire REALLY intended to kill his father, the patriarch would not have been able to stop him.  This does show that he would do anything to protect his secret which goes to illustrate how desperate he was during all the times he was and wasn't a vampire.  What changed in my way of thinking was his metamorphosis from "animal basic instincts" to human again.  In the present time his helping Chris and seeing the similarities between them, helped his guilty conscience prod him to redeem himself.  So for the next 4 years of DS, Barnabas hopped and skipped across time trying to change the "wrongs" to "rights".

Killing Carl IMO crossed the line and was out of character... as the character was being written at the time.  If he had tried killing a member of the family at the beginning, it would not have been out of character.

[Sunny_Collins]

A major annoying "What?" was when in 1970 Julia discovers through her search of Quentin's portrait, that Angelique has returned and is now married to Sky. Angelique informs Julia that she doesn't want to be involved in any of the Collins' problems, that she's found a happy life with her husband and doesn't want that ruined. She pleads with Julia to allow her to live a happy life without her past deeds being revealed, and Julia agrees.

Firstly, this annoys me because if Julia is so devoted to Barnabas, and knowing all the terrible things Angelique subjected him to, highest on the list, the death of many of his family members, she would have at least cut Angelique with a few sharp remarks, then demanded why she shouldn't run and tell barnabas of Angelique's return. Instead, she placidly goes along with Angelique's requests, accept for involving her with smuggling Quentin's painting in order to uncover it from the landscape.

Barnabas does eventually learn of Angelique's existence and marriage, and he goes to her home to ask for her help.

Barnabas should realize by now that Angelique isn't to be trusted, why would he want her help with anything? It seems like he'd want to stay as far away from her as possible. Angelique tells him she doesn't want to help him in any way, that her life with Sky is very important and she doesn't want it ruined by any Collins' antics.

Barnabas, in an understanding tone says he understands her feelings completely and doesn't want to destroy her happiness with her husband.
But why was Barnabas so understanding of her, willing to keep her past deeds quiet, willing to allow her happiness when she so blatantly obliterated his life in 1795? Shouldn't he have reminded her of her selfish motives in the past, using his own knowledge to his advantage to get her to do what he wanted? He was just so docile about the entire thing, as though nothing harsh had ever been between them! 

Through Barnabas's stubborn insistence she promises to conceal Carolyn, but only for a short time. Then she returns to her old ways, threatening him with her formidable powers if he doesn't uphold his end of the bargain, that helping him won't cause her any troubles with Sky. Yet again he is kind in the face of her threats instead of pointing out that he has already been subjected to her powers time and again, he doesn't need to be reminded of her capabilities. IMHO, he should have displayed a little bitterness at her request for happiness when she so coldly and calculatingly denied it to him. 

Yet another moment: After returning from 1995, Barnabas and Julia inform Quentin of his possible future fate, explaining of his madness in the face of family tragedy, and that he will become very attached to the ghost of a woman named Daphne. Fully aware of what is to come, Daphne appears to Quentin, and instead of sending her away, or at the very least protesting her presence with him, he welcomes her, simply because she's a beautiful woman. If knowledge is power, then he didn't use what he knew to avoid a fate he knew was to come. He continues to be involved with Daphne, all the while knowing the dangers, but obviously he doesn't care about his sanity or the children if he is willing to set this all aside for the sake of beauty.

Yet another: During the dream curse when Willie has the dream and is then frantic to tell it to Carolyn, instead of feeling sympathetic towards him, Barnabas and Julia tell him to stop complaining about the dream and search for Adam. Julia has experienced the dream, she knows the terrifying feelings it provokes in the person who has had the dream, so now why is she so callously pushing aside Willie's emotions as if they don't matter? Poor Willie!

[IluvBarnabas]

Speaking of the dream curse why didn't [spoiler]Cassandra uses her powers to force Vicki to tell the dream curse to Barnabas, especially once she realized Vicki wasn't gonna tell the dream of her own free will? Certainly she could have done that without Nicholas' help....[/spoiler]

[BuzzH]

A major annoying "What?" was when in 1970 Julia discovers through her search of Quentin's portrait, that Angelique has returned and is now married to Sky. Angelique informs Julia that she doesn't want to be involved in any of the Collins' problems, that she's found a happy life with her husband and doesn't want that ruined. She pleads with Julia to allow her to live a happy life without her past deeds being revealed, and Julia agrees.

I like to think that although Julia probably wants to cold-cock the bitch, she decides it's best NOT to piss her off if it means she'll never bother Barnabas and his family again.  Like she's appeasing Angelique to keep her out of their lives.  I'd do the same thing, why stir up a hornets nest?

Barnabas does eventually learn of Angelique's existence and marriage, and he goes to her home to ask for her help.  Barnabas should realize by now that Angelique isn't to be trusted, why would he want her help with anything? It seems like he'd want to stay as far away from her as possible. Angelique tells him she doesn't want to help him in any way, that her life with Sky is very important and she doesn't want it ruined by any Collins' antics.  Barnabas, in an understanding tone says he understands her feelings completely and doesn't want to destroy her happiness with her husband.  But why was Barnabas so understanding of her, willing to keep her past deeds quiet, willing to allow her happiness when she so blatantly obliterated his life in 1795?

See above, same reason.

Yet another moment: After returning from 1995, Barnabas and Julia inform Quentin of his possible future fate, explaining of his madness in the face of family tragedy, and that he will become very attached to the ghost of a woman named Daphne. Fully aware of what is to come, Daphne appears to Quentin, and instead of sending her away, or at the very least protesting her presence with him, he welcomes her, simply because she's a beautiful woman. If knowledge is power, then he didn't use what he knew to avoid a fate he knew was to come. He continues to be involved with Daphne, all the while knowing the dangers, but obviously he doesn't care about his sanity or the children if he is willing to set this all aside for the sake of beauty.

If I'm not mistaken, Quentin was under her power and couldn't help himself, regardless of what he knew about Daphne and his future because of her.

Yet another: During the dream curse when Willie has the dream and is then frantic to tell it to Carolyn, instead of feeling sympathetic towards him, Barnabas and Julia tell him to stop complaining about the dream and search for Adam. Julia has experienced the dream, she knows the terrifying feelings it provokes in the person who has had the dream, so now why is she so callously pushing aside Willie's emotions as if they don't matter? Poor Willie!

This pissed me off too as Julia was rather selfish during this period about whether or not Willie should further the dream.  Never mind that SHE had no problem unloading herself of the dream to save HER sanity.  Rather hypocritical IMHO!  This was the only time I was pissed at something Julia did.