Barnabas' Change of Heart

[Dr. Eric Lang]

I'm inclined to disagree with this only because I feel that the Angelique of 1840 is not the same Angelique we're seeing now.  Time traveling has always made it more complicated to rationalize the plot, but as I see it, Angelique moves from 1795 to 1968, to 1897, and then back to 1970.  ( . . . ) However, in 1840 she does not know Julia and doesn't remember being in the future, perhaps because it hasn't happened to her yet.  This Angelique is more primitive, closer to her 1795 self, and therefore very nasty when the 1840 storyline begins;

I agree, ProfStokes. I'd also like to point out the advantage of all the time traveling implications - is the Angelique who shows up in 1840 the same one who knew Victoria Winters in 1795 (and helped frame her as a witch) or is she the Angelique of the orginal 1795 timeline who knew Phyllis Wick as the governess? If she is the latter, it goes a long way in explaining how Barnabas might be able to forgive her past actions, given that we don't necessarily know the specifics of how Angelique behaved in the original timeline when Phyllis Wick was governess, and she may not have been as nasty in that version.

[jennifer]

I agree, ProfStokes. I'd also like to point out the advantage of all the time traveling implications - is the Angelique who shows up in 1840 the same one who knew Victoria Winters in 1795 (and helped frame her as a witch) or is she the Angelique of the orginal 1795 timeline who knew Phyllis Wick as the governess? If she is the latter, it goes a long way in explaining how Barnabas might be able to forgive her past actions, given that we don't necessarily know the specifics of how Angelique behaved in the original timeline when Phyllis Wick was governess, and she may not have been as nasty in that version.

good points Dr L. but time travel does make my head[spin]

jennifer

[Cassandra Blair]

I think everyone has a good point here.  ProfStokes is spot on about the 1840 Angelique not knowing anything about the other timelines save for 1795, and therefore not being as far down the road to redemption as we might think.

But I think Vlad has a point too, the writers seemed to have been moving us emotionally in the direction of sympathy towards Angelique because of her 'helpfulness' in 1897, and what she did for the gang in 1970.

Dr. Lang you could be right - maybe the 1840 Ange IS the one from the original 1795, or she could be from even another thread of time.  Who knows why Barnabas forgave her, that's never made a lot of sense to me...unless he thought the forgiveness would help her to rest in peace, so that she wouldn't come back to wreak more havoc in his life. It reminds me of a line from Buffy "Forgiveness isn't given to a person because they deserve it.  You give it because they need it."

And of course, Jennifer I have to agree with you too.  All this time travel stuff can make my head spin like I'm on nitrous oxide at the dentist's office, lol!

[Gerard]

POSSIBLE SPOILER

I've always wondered, too, if the 1840 Angelique had lived through 1795 with Phyllis Wick or with Victoria.  Now, as many times as I've sat through the 1840/41 storyline, I never noticed if the very old Ben Stokes, when talking with Julia who just arrived in 1840 from 1970, ever made mention of Victoria being the governess, or did he refer to Phyllis, if he referred to the governess at all.  That would determine which 1795 timeline it was:  Phyllis or Vicki.

Gerard

[jennifer]

POSSIBLE SPOILER

I've always wondered, too, if the 1840 Angelique had lived through 1795 with Phyllis Wick or with Victoria.  Now, as many times as I've sat through the 1840/41 storyline, I never noticed if the very old Ben Stokes, when talking with Julia who just arrived in 1840 from 1970, ever made mention of Victoria being the governess, or did he refer to Phyllis, if he referred to the governess at all.  That would determine which 1795 timeline it was:  Phyllis or Vicki.

Gerard

spoilers


good point Gerard! good old Ben would have been the key but i don't think they let him stay around long enough to find out!

jennifer

[Dr. Eric Lang]

I've always wondered, too, if the 1840 Angelique had lived through 1795 with Phyllis Wick or with Victoria.  Now, as many times as I've sat through the 1840/41 storyline, I never noticed if the very old Ben Stokes, when talking with Julia who just arrived in 1840 from 1970, ever made mention of Victoria being the governess, or did he refer to Phyllis, if he referred to the governess at all.  That would determine which 1795 timeline it was:  Phyllis or Vicki.

Sadly, Ben never gets the chance to make the distinction. However, the idea that Angelique in 1840 is the one from the original Phyllis Wick timeline is supported by the fact that she's alive and has been making yearly pilgrimages to Collinsport since 1796. In the Victoria Winters 1795 timeline, she had been strangled and buried. True, she was able to "materialize" as a ghost and testify at trial, but she seems solid enough in 1840 and wouldn't have been able to be shot and killed by Trask if she were already dead.

We don't know what became of Angelique in the original timeline when Phyllis Wick was governess - she may have simply accepted the money Joshua offered her and went away. There definitely would have been a difference in the course of events between the original timeline and the one Victoria Winters lived through - Phyllis Wick would not have arrived at Collinwood wearing clothes from the 1960's, would not have had the family history book, and wouldn't have aroused the suspicion Vicki did. With no history book, Josette would not have read of her own demise before the fact. It's interesting to speculate how different it was when Vicki interceded.

[Cassandra]

Sadly, Ben never gets the chance to make the distinction. However, the idea that Angelique in 1840 is the one from the original Phyllis Wick timeline is supported by the fact that she's alive and has been making yearly pilgrimages to Collinsport since 1796.
We don't know what became of Angelique in the original timeline when Phyllis Wick was governess - she may have simply accepted the money Joshua offered her and went away. There definitely would have been a difference in the course of events between the original timeline and the one Victoria Winters lived through - Phyllis Wick would not have arrived at Collinwood wearing clothes from the 1960's, would not have had the family history book, and wouldn't have aroused the suspicion Vicki did. With no history book, Josette would not have read of her own demise before the fact. It's interesting to speculate how different it was when Vicki interceded.

These are all very good points Dr.Lang but I was under the impression that Angelique was going to accept the money Joshua offered her anyway.  She did sign the papers and told him to leave the bankbook with her and that it would be here in the morning when he returned but she would be gone.  But before she left she had one more thing to do and that was to kill Barnabas before he rose from the dead as a vampire.  As we know, she never got the chance to leave town or kill Barnabas because he strangled her first.  So Im assuming this might have been played out the same way regardless of Vicky being there or not.

We also know that Josette did jump or fall to her death at Widows hill because Barnabas told Carolyn & Vicky the story way before Vicky went back into the past. Something must have made her run from Barnabas so IMO Im thinking it was only because of Angelique's involvment in the whole thing.

I agree with you on Angelique from 1840 being the same Angelique from the 1795 original storyline which included Phyliss Wick as the governess.  The only difference I can think of as to what happened here is that Barnabas wasn't as close to Phyliss Wick as he was to Vicky.  He took a liking to Vicky and firmly believed in her innocence of being charged as a witch.  I don't think he was that close to Miss Wick in the same way he was with Vicky.

Everyone has such good points on this subject and I enjoy hearing everyone's comments.  This time travel stuff gets so confusing sometimes and I wonder if the writers realized all the confusion they'd be causing their viewers all these years later!!

Cassandra

[Miss_Winthrop]

The whole dream sequence with Marsha Mason, hooker-turned-into-vampire, was absolutely wonderful.  It reminds me of a movie - I can't remember the name now - about a soldier who passes from one dream to another, never knowing what is reality and what is not.  Just when you think he's finally awake, it's another dream.

And here I thought that I was practically the only one who liked the Leviathan story line.  I really like all the different characters and the complexity of the story. At first I didn't care much for Chris Pennock but as this story goes on, he gets better and better IMHO.

Speaking of Marsha Mason, perhaps someone else noticed that she was actually standing in the corner at one point and observing the acting going on in front of the camera.  It reminds me of the time that while the cameras were filming Julia, Victoria and Liz, Jonathan Frid was standing in the corner waiting for his entrance.  It's remarkable that all of this is on film and seeing them in the background doesn't bother me at all.  Which is in contrast to how upset I feel about the time that a stage hand in a blue shirt is caught on camera when Barnabas emerges from his coffin for the first time to discover that he's a vampire.