DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '08 II => Topic started by: michael c on October 23, 2008, 10:30:40 PM
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i certainly hope this doesn't offend anybody because it sure entertained me...
i've been watching the late 1968 episodes.i just watched the episode(614)where joe is attempting to strangle barnabas with a drapery tieback and is interupted by mrs.johnson at clarice blackburn's histrionic best.it's too good for words.
the episode moves on to scenes with mrs.j.,her son harry,roger and liz and of course joe.something about the tone of this episode struck me...perhaps that it's gayest episode ever!
it positively oozed lavender.
jonathan frid only appears in the first few minutes so the rest of the episode is dominated by actors we now know to be gay:louis edmonds,joel crothers (i don't know about frid so we'll leave him out of the conversation).while it's doubtful any of them were publicly "out" at the time("such things" were not openly discussed)i was wondering if they were quietly out with each other.if there existed something of a backstage camaraderie between them on this point.a "sisterhood" so to speak.i imagine that after lifetimes spent on stage and screen both joan bennett and clarice blackburn were faghags of the highest order.was this an atmosphere in which they felt "safe" to be themselves?
i'm imagining some dishy backstage chat.crothers is shirtless for much of this episode and perhaps edmonds and slocum exchanged approving glances.maybe mostoller and vinnie loscalzo stopped by to chime in on how hunky that new don briscoe is.
actors aside the way that mrs.johnson and harry interact is very much the classic mother/gay son relationship.the stereotypical byproduct of the absent/dead father and the domineering mother(and mrs.j. was nothing if not overbearing).i know it's all a cliche but that's the subtext i read into it even if "such things" could never by spelled out in specifics back then.
on a totally different note what also struck me here was that,in the midst of the madness that was 1968,nothing supernatural happens in this episode.there was something vaguely "1966-ish" about it.it included much of the original cast and the big "cliffhanger" was roger calling the sheriff.it sort of had a naive charm in that the police were the biggest threat being posed here.
anyways i in no way mean this as a mockery.please know that it comes from a place of love for my spiritual forbearers. [hall2_kiss]
(edited by admin)
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Hmmm. I'm interested in any gay elements onstafe or offstage, 'cause it's like a parallel universe I get to find out about thanks to the Internet. A shut-in likes to grab opportunities to feel more worldly, maybe. David talked about the questionable practice of going along with the pressure to keep gayness hidden away, by feeling compelled to speak about it in hushed tones. (I really think I'm a writer or something this afternoon, don't I?) Still, outing people posthumously or not... I think DSF doesn't like it, and since they're not here to approve or disapprove, it seems like a bad idea. I get David's point of view on this, though. It's just a messy situation where there's no clear right answer.
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[8_1_209]
I think Daddy Barnabas beating his boy Willie is much gayer!
Also Crazy Jenny screaming:
"I saw you walking in the garden~~and you were wearing MY GREEN DRESS!"
David
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Hey MSC, You've really intrigued me and I need to revisit this episode. I love watching Clarice and Louis chew the scenery, and watching Joel thrash around with his shirt off appeals to my perverted sensual lechery (a hothouse bloom, delicately nurtured).
From what Craig Hamrick wrote in the original edition of Big Lou (I never was able to get hold of the revised edition), I'd say that Louis Edmonds was about as openly gay as it was possible to be in 1968.
I'd be hard put to identify one specific moment as "the gayest ever" scene on DS. Some of Count Petofi and Aristede's scenes were really, really out there. I don't think you're much of a Petofi fan. I also think that Julia moaning and flailing for "Tom" was epically gay in the Tennessee Williams sense of Blanche du Bois standing in for all the gay men in the audience of A Streetcar Named Desire. (Somebody once commented that what really caused the eventual Gay Liberation movement was Tallulah Bankhead's turn as Blanche in a production that I think happened in Florida.) I also find the scenes where Barnabas is one-on-one with Chris agonizing over his "affliction" to be very slashy, although that may not be what you intend with the adjective "gay."
cheers, Gothique.
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gothick,
give the ep a look and tell me what you think.
the series is loaded with moments with large gay subtexts(parallel time roger certainly comes to mind)but here i wasn't thinking so much about the written content of the episode but more that most of the actors present were gay and what the on-set 'feel' was like in this situation.
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My vote for gayest episode is from 1897 and involves hunky Tim Shaw, repressed C. D. Tate, and Tate's luscious creation. I posted about it years ago under the title, "They Really Were the Gay Nineties."
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Hey, Claude--great to see you here, and contributing to this thread!
I remember that episode well. I also remember an episode around that time where Tim and Tate are talking in the Blue Whale (or whatever it was called at the time), and Roger Davis almost cracks up because you can tell from the look on his face as if he suddenly thinks they're playing it as if the two men are talking about going to bed together (at least, that is my own interpretation of that scene).
G.
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Any sort of "subtext" is a guess that one may or may not be wrong about. We are all influenced by the point of view of whatever group we happen to belong to.
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Okay, Josette's favorite scent was Jasmine, Daphne's was Lilac. Whose favorite was lavender? [hall2_kiss]
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This is probably as good a place as any to ask this question: why is lavender associated with homosexuality? I'm curious.
Nancy
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I don't know for certain, but I suspect the association has to with the color and probably was first used as a insult by bigots - pale purple being a color that sissy boys would like to or are seen wearing....
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magnus,
just a little f.y.i...
i don't think that i've "outed anyone posthumously".i believe that the three actors in question here were all out themselves later in life.
and as an out gay man nor do i consider the subject to be a "messy situation with no clear right answer" or a "bad idea".such remarks sort of bring the tone of the conversation down doncha think?
the topic was posted lightly,playfully,in the spirit of good fun.
it was not intended to be turned into a sour debate.
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Hi MSC, and anyone else who's still reading this topic,
I did watch the episode in question last night (and then wound up watching most of the following episode as well--but if I decide to comment on the latter, I'll do it in the appropriate thread). I think the highlight for me was the scene between Mrs Johnson and Harry. (Ironically, a few evenings before, I had been test-driving the Collectors Series second set which had just arrived, and happened to view the scene where Carolyn first suggests to Liz that Mrs J would just love to work at Collinwood; I'd forgotten what a delicious scene it is when Liz arches her eyebrows, quirks her lips and says "Sarah JOHNSON?" as if she were the last person on earth she'd want to have underfoot at the Great House!)
I recently watched a Something Weird twofer (She-Man and The Sins of Rachel) and something about Craig Slocum's acting really evokes the atmosphere of sleaze and moral decay (maybe decay isn't the right word--think a stained sofa with sagging upholstery and tattered fabric) a lot of those late Sixties miniscule-budget productions radiate in spades. But in this scene with the brilliant Clarice Blackburn, Slocum's shifty-eyed equivocation actually works really well. I thought again there was a slashy subtext when Sarah was quizzing Harry about why Joe would be living at Collinwood since he has "his own place to live."
My roommate was watching when Joe was wandering the woods semi-barechested and speculated that he was probably out there looking for action...
cheers! G.
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magnus,
just a little f.y.i...
i don't think that i've "outed anyone posthumously".i believe that the three actors in question here were all out themselves later in life.
and as an out gay man nor do i consider the subject to be a "messy situation with no clear right answer" or a "bad idea".such remarks sort of bring the tone of the conversation down doncha think?
the topic was posted lightly,playfully,in the spirit of good fun.
it was not intended to be turned into a sour debate.
Apparently I made a mistake, and I'm sorry. My intentions were good. We've mis-communicated here too, but I think I'm out of my depth on this subject and had better just withdraw without trying to fix anything... except to say that even though you weren't outing anyone, as it turns out, it's not bizarre or unheard of to believe that doing so can be a "bad idea". I think I can see both sides on that one.
I'm not trying to start up any debate here. I'm just trying to withdraw from this, while trying to have people see that I didn't mean any harm.
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i always felt that Julia Hoffman CHARACTER was a bit lesbianic for my taste. she loved Maggie Evans. (and carolyn too, but mostly Maggie!)
[female_skull]
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i believe that the three actors in question here were all out themselves later in life.
I understand what you're saying, but the Forum Guidelines address comments concerning the private lives of DS personnel, and the board admins do not recognize word of mouth as a source for the information.
Modifications were made to posts in the topic because we're not aware that the information exists in a published source, nor if they were documented during a public appearance, but if either applies, the posters are welcome to pass the information along to MB or myself and the edits will be restored to their respective posts as soon as one of us is able. This has always been our policy and the issue has come up many times before, but we hope posters will understand that MB and I can't know about every book, interview, transcript or article that mentions a DS actor, and please know that in situations where we're not aware of the source, "I read somewhere" can seem very vague to us.
I apologize for not posting a response sooner, but I've been without home phone service for more than 24 hours, though thanks to a cell phone, a slightly charged notebook PC, and an ingenious son I made modifications last evening to a couple of posts in this topic. mscbryk, I realize that you didn't notice the edits and I'm sorry for any confusion this caused. My service is fully restored and if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
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I'd just like to add that I've been very concerned about whether I may have mis-spoken in an offensive way owing to my brain functioning going up and down. It may be ridiculous for me to presume to talk on gay matters, and I wonder if some posters might be losing patience with me over this. I'm still in the same sort of clouded brain state as yesterday, so I just can't tell whether I was making sense or not yesterday. I hope I didn't do any damage of any sort.
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You didn't do any damage of any sort.
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I'm aware of a number of DS stars who were openly gay to friends & co-workers, but who never came out to the fan base or general public.
Two did:
Louis Edmonds at a fest & in Craig Hamrick's book Big Lou.
And one other.
He actually mentioned a boyfriend in an early 80s soap mag interview. Is it OK to name him, mods? (because of the mag interview)
Since the others chose to not tell the fans, we should respect their privacy even now, I think.
David
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i'm surprised to hear you say this david.
several of the actors on the series are widely known to have been gay.whether or not they publicly chose to "come out to their fans" is somewhat beside the point.it is a simple statement of fact.
this is the year 2008 and i'm simply not going to speak of the subject in hushed,secretive or shameful terms.
sorry if that sounds soapboxy.
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When the publication (titles & date unknown) surfaces, David. I've honestly not heard about it before today.
This has been explained, even recently: If you provide information so that there's no doubt whom you are speaking about, it's the same as saying the person's name. For that reason, your post was edited very soon after it was submitted, David.
And actually, there are published accounts that more than a few DS personnel, all sadly gone, were gay.
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i'm surprised to hear you say this david.
several of the actors on the series are widely known to have been gay.whether or not they publicly chose to "come out to their fans" is somewhat beside the point.it is a simple statement of fact.
this is the year 2008 and i'm simply not going to speak of the subject in hushed,secretive or shameful terms.
sorry if that sounds soapboxy.
Hey, I'm with you, out loud & proud.
I'm a big believer in outing closeted, right wing hypocrites.
But if someone chooses to keep their sexuality private & doesn't bother anyone else, then I say let their lives remain private.
Anyway, we all know who's gay & who's not, don't we?
David
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Oh yhea..I love Maggie too!! ..and Josette..and Rachel...There were alot of gay moments on the show but I could say the same thing about Star Trek too and Starsky and Hutch. Who cares? Its all that stuff that made it so very special. [skelleton_runs]
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In asking whose favorite scent was lavender.. Didn't Mrs. J say she could still smell Victoria's scent of lavender when she finally left for good in the show and she and maggie were packing her clothes?? Am I wrong or right?
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Didn't Mrs. J say she could still smell Victoria's scent of lavender when she finally left for good in the show and she and maggie were packing her clothes?? Am I wrong or right?
The first Watching Project reached that ep this past week:
They discuss the fact that Mrs. J took the clothing out. Perhaps a joke, suggests Barnabas, but Mrs. J disagrees. She spots the music box on the desk and demands that Barnabas explain it. Mrs. J is sure "Vicki needs us and is calling to us from wherever she is." She's gone! says Barnabas angrily. Mrs. J suddenly smells the scent of lilac, Vicki's perfume,
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Who cares? Its all that stuff that made it so very special.
Ain't That The Truth!!! [128]
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From what I am aware, that's more of a desire for privacy. Just like everyone else, those who happen to be gay may prefer to keep their private lives private simply because that is a choice. It has nothing to do with being ashamed, wanting to keep "it" a secret. Being gay is nothing to be ashamed of - it's a sexual orientation, period. Those actors who may not mention they are gay may not feel it's something to be pointed out anymore than it is to discuss a straight's persons dissolved marriages, extramarital affairs or the fact he/she is dating. To do so only opens up the questions about who is involved in what, who are you dating, with whom do you live, etc. I don't know any closeted gay people (if I do, I am not aware of it) and I know many gay men of all ages. Some of them are simply private people. A lot of the DS personnel are that way, those who come to the conventions. The more a fan knows about a person's private life, the more dangerous the information can be in the wrong hands.
Nancy
I'm aware of a number of DS stars who were openly gay to friends & co-workers, but who never came out to the fan base or general public.
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Mrs. J suddenly smells the scent of lilac, Vicki's perfume,
[spoiler]Are you sure that isn't some bizarre time paradox thingy and somehow Daphne's perfume haunted the house several years early and David, in a trance, called Amy Hallie as they were fishing out Victoria's clothes for Daphne to wear? [hall2_grin][/spoiler]
I'm in a silly mood today.....
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Ow... you just hurt my head...
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This is probably as good a place as any to ask this question: why is lavender associated with homosexuality? I'm curious.
I think it's associated with lilacs--the color and the fact that lilacs are considered to be especially feminine flowers. I read that somewhere but can't remember where at the moment. Aren't violets also associated with it as well?
Usage goes back quite far as far as lavender goes....the OED puts it at 1929 (Cole Porter song). Several other references from the 30s and 40s...
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I believe Luciaphil is right. The scientific name for lavender is Lavandula Angustifolia. It comes from liliac or violet petals. How I got on this topic is beyond me but I think it had to do with Vicky's scent or how lavender became associated with homsexuality. Am I right or wrong again? If Murphy's Law is correct I'm probably wrong. In any case..its a nice, sensual scent. So pleasing to the senses. And I love Cole Porter songs!!
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Well, Collinsport can't be too far from Ogonquit! [snow_cheesy]