DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '10 II => Topic started by: BryceLozier on September 08, 2010, 02:31:38 AM
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My question is, who was it that sat for the original "Josette" portrait as seen in the Old House? The reason I ask is that after seeing it so many times, I honestly do NOT believe that Kathryn Leigh Scott (KLS) was the model for the portrait, in spite of her playing the flesh-and-blood character later on. My reasons for believing this are:
1) The Josette in the portrait appears to have a larger bust-line than KLS has (trying to state this as respectfully as I can, but KLS appeared to be a rather slender woman, more so than the model for the portrait)
2) On a similar note, KLS appears to have an, ahem, "thinner" face than the model does. For example, KLS's cheekbones are more clearly visible than the painted Josette's are; and also, the painted Josette has more prominent lips than KLS has, etc, etc.
Anyone else notice this??
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Hi Bryce, we've all noticed what you're saying. When I first started watching the show in the Sixties, I found the putative resemblance of Maggie to Josette's portrait very puzzling because the two simply do not look at all alike. I think the portrait may have been a thrift-shop purchase which also seems to have been the case for the "Isaac Collins" portrait and some of the other "ancestral" (or is that "incestral" since we just enjoyed a wonderful image of Louis doing that line) portraits in the Great House.
My least favorite thing with Josette's portrait was when during one of the last storylines the date 1797 was added to the portrait in garish red paint. It was so awful it practically looked like vandalism.
There's another thread from recent days here where fans talk about how in the original 1967 storyline, Barnabas did not actually believe Maggie to be the reincarnation of Josette; he simply wanted to brainwash her into his new "Josette." When Maggie didn't work out, he turned to Vicki. I think the original storyline was heavily influenced by a 1965 noirish film from England called The Collector.
So, there actually wasn't supposed to be a resemblance between Maggie and the portrait--and the original story had Barnabas and Josette's doomed love affair taking place in the 1830s which accounts for why the clothing on Josette doesn't look 18th century in the portrait.
Of course, after they rewrote the storyline to have Josette living in the 1790s and portrayed by KLS, fans understandably got the impression that there was a link between Josette and Maggie that existed in objective reality, not just a deluded psychotic fantasy in the brain of the more than half mad Barnabas. (In those scenes when he is holding Maggie prisoner and terrorizing her emotionally, I swear it is some of the creepiest material ever presented on television--both Frid and KLS do a great job with this unsavory tale--spinechilling!)
G.
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I agree, this was one of the most unsettling events that transpired in Collinsport. TCM aired "The Collector" this summer, and I happened to catch some of it and remembered you had posted about that movie in the past, Gothick. Mr. Frid's performance at this point does share similarities with Terrance Stamp's psychologically creepy portrayal.
When I looked into the movie later, I was surprised to find that it was directed by the legendary William Wyler and was based on a novel by John Fowles, a popular and literary novelist popular in the 1960s (such as "The French Lieutenant's Woman"). And Stamp's costar was the always stunningly good Samantha Eggar.
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One of the stranger moments in Dark Shadows, for me, comes in episode 507, when Professor Stokes and Julia agree that the portrait of Josette looks like Maggie. I know that that's how it must be, and that Josette and Maggie were played by the same actor, but I still see a difference between, on the one hand, obsessed Barnabas claiming that the portrait looks like Maggie, and, on the other hand, sane and sensible Stokes and Julia seeing a resemblance.
So, there actually wasn't supposed to be a resemblance between Maggie and the portrait--and the original story had Barnabas and Josette's doomed love affair taking place in the 1830s which accounts for why the clothing on Josette doesn't look 18th century in the portrait.
There's additional confusion when Vicky goes to visit Josette's grave in episode 283, because I'm quite sure I remember that the dates in that gravestone were 1800-1822.
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Thanks, Lydia. For some reason I remember 1837 as the "original" date of Josette's death. No idea what episode or statement in canon supplied that date. I don't remember the episode you mention at all. It must be from the Laura story?
Best,
G.
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Gothick, you might have seen that date on a grave stone, too. I seem to remember the same thing. But once time travel started, all hell broke loose as far as dates and deaths, etc.
as far as Josette's portrait, remember when Maggie went Missing, all of a sudden Victoria looked like Josette, and blah blah blah. Barnabas sure was fickle. they could have gradually changed the portrait by the time they went to 1795. Isn't that the same portrait that arrives in time for the wedding in 1795?
KLS got gypped out of having a great portrait of her done. she got a crappy one as well as angelique until Parallel time.
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KLS got gypped out of having a great portrait of her done.
We don't know what a portrait of Kathryn Leigh Scott as Josette would have been like. I like the un-KLS portrait of Josette so much that I wouldn't trade it for a portrait that looked more like the living Josette whom we saw.
Gothick, I find 1834 as the original date of Josette's death. Robservations, episode 52:Vicki agrees. She turns off the lamp and they exit the drawing room. The book opens by itself to a page with a bookmark. The bookmark slides off to reveal a page. JOSETTE COLLINS, it says, Born 1810, died 1834.
At Barnabas's gala costume party in episodes 280 and 281, I believe the costumes are supposed to be vintage 1830s clothing, including the dress of Josette's that Vicky wore.
The episode with the 1800-1822 gravestone is from when Julia takes Maggie to Eagle Hill Cemetery, before Julia meets Barnabas. Doctor and patient retreat to the mausoleum when they see Vicky coming. Come to think of it, if that was episode 283, and the costume party was 280-281, then the styrofoam chiselers weren't in communication with the writers, were they?
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I believe the costumes are supposed to be vintage 1830s clothing, including the dress of Josette's that Vicky wore.
I don't *think* they actually pin down a time frame. It might be that we're lead to presume the 1830s because of everything that has come before the party.
the styrofoam chiselers weren't in communication with the writers, were they?
That seems to be a continuing situation on DS regardless of which production because the plaque for Daphne's grave in the '91 series was inadvertently made by the prop department to read "Daphne Collins" when it should have read "Daphne Stoddard" - but they just left it that way, thereby making Daphne's relationship to the Collins family rather confusing.
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For some reason I remember 1837 as the "original" date of Josette's death. No idea what episode or statement in canon supplied that date. I don't remember the episode you mention at all. It must be from the Laura story?
I've been watching the pre-Barnabas episodes and in one of episodes following Vicki's arrival at Collinwood, they show a page in the Collins Family History, with a sketch (presumably of Josette) and the words "Josette Collins (1810-1834).
At this point, they are still going with the original backstory of Josette having come from France in 1830 to marry Jeremiah, whom Elizabeth says was her's and Roger's great-grandfather.
I've always wondered if Josette was supposed to be their great-grandmother? Or was she a second wife? At any rate, this was before they invented our gentleman vamp. lol
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and then didn't they invent the story: the collins never wrote the true story....made up things to suit themselves....
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since kathryn leigh scott had already been playing the ghost of josette collins for several months when the barnabas storyline was launched the writers must have thought(in the name of continuity,still a consideration in 1967)it made sense to have barnabas try and "recreate" josette through maggie evans. but i don't think barnabas(or the writers)ever saw her as the "reincarnation" of josette at that point. even in later years when barnabas ran into josette clones at nearly every turn(and i believe it was established that kitty hampshire was in fact josette reincarnated. or was she actually josette? i forget)it was never suggested that maggie evans was some new incarnation of josette. she just sort of looked like her.
i don't think vicki was ever supposed to "look like" josette. barnabas fell for her because she possessed what he saw as josette-like qualities(virtue.modesty.innocence.dull stuff like that)but not for any physical resemblance. i don't even recall him commenting on her beauty or appearance much at all.
i certainly can't claim to be an expert on french history but frocks i know a thing or two about. the gown josette wore in the portrait and the gown barnabas made maggie wear as josette when he imprisoned her and the gown vicki wears to the costume party and finally the gown we actually see josette herself wearing in 1795 is in the high-waisted "empire style"(pronounced "om-peer" if you really want to sound pretentious and fashiony). this line of dress began to appear in france and throughout the courts of europe in the late 1790's but achieved great popularity during the napoleonic period(1804-1815)through napoleon's wife josephine. hence it's named the "empire style" in honor of the first french empire.
however it began to wain in popularity with the end of napoleon's reign and by 1820 was well out of fashion. so it's not something a high born woman of josette dupre's status would still be wearing as late as 1830. it makes more sense with the revised 1790's timeline.
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Of course, they had every chance to play this up in 1795--I can imagine some events which result in Joshua exclaiming that he doesn't care if the portrait doesn't look like Josette, it will be Josette anyway, as far as history is concerned... A much better idea than pretending KLS' Josette looks like that painting.
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I've always wondered if Josette was supposed to be their great-grandmother? Or was she a second wife? At any rate, this was before they invented our gentleman vamp. lol
I shoud have waited a bit and I would have had my own answer. I watched episode #102 and David, while yakking to Josette's portrait, calls her "Great-great Grandmother."
It's funny when you examine all the detours and revisions Josette's story took when they decided to give it to Barnabas as his backstory. They could have worked with what they'd already said. But I guess it wouldn't have made Barn look very sympathetic if he'd been rejecting a maidservant and lusting after his uncle's wife at the same time unless he'd had a prior claim on Josette. At least not to 1967 audiences.
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the syrofoam chiserlers weren't in communication with the writers
LMAO. So true. They never did update Naomi's mausoleum deathdate from 1820 to 1796, not even after they told us she'd died a suicide after finding out about Barnabas.
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Thanks mscbryk for the notes about Josette's frock. Fascinating!
G.
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I always thought it strange that the prtrait looks nothing like KLS. It's still a lovely portrait though.
Also obvious that they revised Josette and Jeremiah as the direct ancestors.
Barnabas was drawn to Maggie because she looked like Josette, and then later to Vicki because of similarities he was in their personalities.
As for Daphne in 1991 Revival series, wasn't she supposed to be Roger and Liz's niece, presumably the daughter of an unseen and unmentioned but presumably dead brother, so she should be Daphne Collins, right? Or am I missing something?
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at lot of DS almost gets told in reverse. a story or character gets mentioned as an abstract concept and only later does it become an actualized flesh and blood character.
that's especially true of josette. she was an idea. a legend. a ghost long before anyone thought she'd end up a real character. so the props department must have bought the painting of "josette" somewhere with that intention and didn't have a portrait of kathryn leigh scott painted the way they did with barnabas' painting and jonathan frid.
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As for Daphne in 1991 Revival series, wasn't she supposed to be Roger and Liz's niece, presumably the daughter of an unseen and unmentioned but presumably dead brother, so she should be Daphne Collins, right? Or am I missing something?
That's the sort of explanation that the audience pretty much has to come up with on their own thanks to the prop department's bungle, but the writers intended Daphne to be a Stoddard. But other than the plaque on her grave, and I *think* a reference somewhere along the way to her being Liz' niece, there's actually no specific explanation given on the series for how Daphne is actually related...
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This is getting off-topic to the point where I considered starting a new topic, but...
Was any purpose going to be served by having Daphne be a Stoddard?
And another off-topic matter...
(and i believe it was established that kitty hampshire was in fact josette reincarnated. or was she actually josette? i forget)
I don't believe it was ever established that Kitty was the reincarnation of Josette, and I was watching pretty carefully for definite statements when I was watching that part of 1897 last year for the Watching Project. Barnabas said Kitty was Josette's reincarnation, but that doesn't make it so.
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Re Daphne: In HODS, aside from Willie, isn't Daphne the first victim of Barnabas, and wasn't she Liz's secretary and just a distant cousin?
I am probably so totally wrong on this.....ah, the 70's...... [ghost_wink]
Modification:
Hey, not bad for a 70's head! She was Daphne Budd (that name was going through my head) and she was Liz's Secretary, but not listed as a cousin. Played by Lisa Richards. So, she was morphed into a cousin in the 91 revival and yet, never appeared on the original show, other than the name (there were 2 Daphne Harridges -- 3 if you want to split hairs, and another Daphne, earlier on, correct?).
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re: Kitty -- thought she was the reincarnation of Josette, and not the shool teacher, Rachel Drummond. Or was this mojo from Petofi?
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Barnabas said Kitty was Josette's reincarnation, but that doesn't make it so.
LOL! Most things were usually the opposite of whatever Barn said they were.
The last time I watched 1897, I was convinced Kitty was simply possessed by Josette's ghost. I think the Kitty/Josette issue--like much of DS--was left open to interpretation.
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BUT WAIT.
[spoiler]didn't Josette save Barnabas? pulled him back to the future and to the kearn? right, right after Kitty killed herself with the poison. [/spoiler] [ghost_shocked]
so, okay, she was a ghost and kitty was a host body?
i'm so confused......
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The last time I watched 1897, I was convinced Kitty was simply possessed by Josette's ghost. I think the Kitty/Josette issue--like much of DS--was left open to interpretation.
Actually, I believe the scene in Ep #874 between Kitty and Quentin[spoiler](who is in Petofi's body, has the powers of the hand, and uses them on Kitty)[/spoiler]pretty much shows conclusively that Kitty is Josette's actual reincarnation.
BUT WAIT.
[spoiler]didn't Josette save Barnabas? pulled him back to the future and to the kearn? right, right after Kitty killed herself with the poison. [/spoiler] [ghost_shocked]
The Leviathans[spoiler]sent Barnabas back to 1969,[/spoiler]not Josette. [ghost_smiley]
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Kitty had several personal psychic epiphanies that established over a couple of weeks that she was Josette's reincarnation. They made it fairly clear to the viewer that this wasn't Angelique or Petofi messing with Kitty's mind; it was Kitty's own remembrance of a past life, brought about by her visit to Collinwood and eventually her meeting with Barnabas.
My favorite thing about this particular storyline is every time Barn starts nattering on and on to Julia about how "I have found my Josette again," Julia looks like she's about ready to separate Barn's head from his body. The eye-rolling reaches a truly sublime level.
G.
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My favorite thing about this particular storyline is every time Barn starts nattering on and on to Julia about how "I have found my Josette again," Julia looks like she's about ready to separate Barn's head from his body. The eye-rolling reaches a truly sublime level.
My eyes roll right along with Julia's. The lost Josette thing was heartbreaking and bittersweet in the beginning, but by the time of the 1897 story, and two Josette wannabes, it had lost it's appeal for me. I kept hoping Rachel or Kitty would chuck that music box at his head. [ghost_grin]
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Liz mentions in passing early in the series something about her grandmother. Since her bio paternal grandmother was Laura and was presumed dead, I have heard specualtion that before Barnabas changed time Kitty married Edward and was the grandmother Liz remembered fondly.
Of course, this could be Liz's maternal grandmother she's remembering. I think it has something to do with Liz having jewelry her grandmother gave her. Still, I like the idea of Kitty becomes a Collins and having a good life complete with grandchildren, before Barnabas comes back and spoils it for her.
Odd that Josette would be reincarnated and then come back as a ghost in her old persona.