"miss morality"

[michael c]

i love a good d.s. showdown.

i just watched the jason mcguire blackmail storyline and it concludes with a sweet one between everyone's favorite seafaring rogue and goody-two-shoes governess.

jason has been given his walking papers by the collins family as well as the police.he makes a final stop by the blue whale when vicki comes in to look for carolyn(who took-off after the wedding fiasco).jason decides to have a few words with miss "prim and proper" whom has been something of a thorn in his side since this little caper began.it's one thing to be treated with disdain by members of the family but quite another by someone who is really just a servant in the house(albeit one treated as a family member).

they really go at it.vicki...who by the way is acting very self-rightous in this scene...lashes out by chastising jason for ruining the life of a "wonderful woman".jason counters by taunting vicki with the revalation that very soon she may have a price fixed on her head(we know what's coming here)and how disappointed he is that he won't be around to see it.ouch!he finishes with a little zinger about how he wonders who she is and where she comes from...and then implies that since he was around collinsport eighteen years earlier perhaps he knows something and with that the wounded girl departs(this is i believe the last major reference to vicki's origins).

vicki functioned in an interesting role during this storyline.she wasn't yet that involved in the barnabas plot and wasn't herself being victimized.like during the laura collins story she was a voice of reason and actually helped other people out.needless to say this is about to change in a big way.

[Gothick]

I watched the final week or so of Jason Maguire episodes at some point last Summer, I think, and I remember very well this scene and being hugely impressed by it.

After it was over, there came some feelings of frustration about how the foreshadowing Jason gives in this sequence about future events in the life of Miss Winters is largely tossed out the window (presumably by executive order of DC).

Still a brilliantly written and, of course, beautifully acted scene.  Dennis Patrick is great as always and we get a taste of how much more Moltke could have done had her role not been dumbed-down with the full onset of the Barnabas years.

G.

[IluvBarnabas]

I really enjoy that showdown between Jason and Vicki at the Blue Whale. Jason deserved every bit of that tongue-lashing that Vicki gave him for the hell and torment he put Elizabeth through....I just wish either Vicki, Roger, Burke, SOMEONE had decked him one....he'd have so deserved it!!!

And I doubt that Jason really knew anything about Vicki's orgins, he only said that to irk her.

[BuzzH]

I just wish either Vicki, Roger, Burke, SOMEONE had decked him one....he'd have so deserved it!!!

Well, let's face it, [spoiler]ol' Barny-boy gave him what he TRULY deserved, LOL![/spoiler]

And I doubt that Jason really knew anything about Vicki's orgins, he only said that to irk her.

ITA w/this!  Especially in light of the fact that we never 'officicially' learned who Vickie's parents were.   

[adamsgirl]

I have to disagree here, Buzz. I think Jason did know more than he cared to reveal. After all, he was a friend of Paul Stoddard's (birds of a feather!). Paul would have confided in him about Vicki's relation to the family, if there was one (I'm of the opinion she was Liz's daughter, but that's been debated to death). Anyway, it would be just like the vindictive, spiteful Jason to tease her with this knowledge and leave her hanging.

[arashi]

I have to disagree here, Buzz. I think Jason did know more than he cared to reveal. After all, he was a friend of Paul Stoddard's (birds of a feather!). Paul would have confided in him about Vicki's relation to the family, if there was one (I'm of the opinion she was Liz's daughter, but that's been debated to death). Anyway, it would be just like the vindictive, spiteful Jason to tease her with this knowledge and leave her hanging.

I agree with you (and am in the same camp as in Vicki being Liz's daughter, but I haven't seen 95% of the pre-Barnabas episodes so I can only go on what I've read about them). Anyway Jason was a man who collected information to use for his own ends, I think he knew exactly where Vicki came from.

[adamsgirl]

I agree with you (and am in the same camp as in Vicki being Liz's daughter, but I haven't seen 95% of the pre-Barnabas episodes so I can only go on what I've read about them). Anyway Jason was a man who collected information to use for his own ends, I think he knew exactly where Vicki came from.

I hope you do get to see those episodes soon, but I can tell you this: [spoiler]watching them won't shed any light on her parentage. It was one of those things that fell by the wayside once Barnabas was introduced to the show. That's why we all just speculate.[/spoiler]

[michael c]

jason as much as tells vicki that he's just trying to hurt her by implying he knows something about her origins.
it's unlikey jason "knew" the answers to this mystery because i don't think anyone including the writers or even dan curtis himself actually knew how this plotline would have been resolved and then it was dropped anyways.

i read somewhere(he we go with gossip and speculation)that the idea that vicki might have been elizabeth's daughter was not even part of the show's original plotting.it was noted during auditions how closely alexandra moltke resembled joan bennett and then it just added another layer to the storyline...which of course went unresolved.

liz as vicki's mother is certainly the sentimental choice in hindsight but i'm of that rare camp that doesn't buy it.the numbers just don't add up.i think the abandoned portrait of betty hanscome was where this was heading before the storyline moved in a completely different direction.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

i read somewhere(he we go with gossip and speculation)that the idea that vicki might have been elizabeth's daughter was not even part of the show's original plotting.it was noted during auditions how closely alexandra moltke resembled joan bennett and then it just added another layer to the storyline...which of course went unresolved.

That is all very true - in the Shadows on the Wall bible, Paul Stoddard was intended to be Vicki's father. However, many, many things changed from the way the bible is written (two of the biggest are perhaps 1) that Bill Malloy was intended to be a central character who would be deeply involved in the entire first year of plots, and 2) that Roger was to be killed off), and those elements were changed long before the show went into an even slightly supernatural direction. And you don't have to worry about gossip and speculation because it's actually a fact that once the resemblance between Alexandra and Joan was noticed, it was then decided that Vicki would be Liz' daughter. Joan herself had gone on record more than once to say that she was told that Vicki was Liz' daughter and that's how she played the subtext of their scenes together.

It's also true that there are many twists and turns in DS' first year that make it seem like all manner of other resolutions to Vicki's parentage could have been possible. But then it's simply the nature of soaps to throw in all sorts of red herrings to keep the audience guessing - and to potentially even misdirect them. 

[michael c]

i guess the reason that i've always been resistant to the "liz is vicki's mother" theory is the age thing.

if we are to assume that the age of the characters is close to the age of the actors who played them then liz would have been in her late thirties at the time of vicki's birth...not some young frightened girl who found herself "in trouble" but a mature,wealthy,married lady.so what's all the fuss?

i also like to think that liz was a woman of enough character(yes,i know these are fictitious people)that even if she did find herself in a situation where she bore a child that for whatever reason she was not able to raise herself she would have found a better solution than sending the poor thing to a distant orphanage and sending a measly monthly(weekly?)check(was it for $100.00?i haven't seen these episodes in ages).

that said it apparently was a private decision on grayson hall's part to have her character(julia)fall in love with barnabas as a point of motivation for everything she was doing(with thanks to julia99).this added alot of nuance to the way things played out.i can certainly see how joan bennett acted on a similar instict because her attitiude toward vicki was certainly maternal even if that was never spelled out in specifics.

like i said it's been a long time since i watched the early episodes but i vaugely recall liz mentioning a butler named "hanscomb" who i think was supposed to be the father of the subject of the portrait "betty" who so greatly resembled vicki...perhaps there was some "upstairs,downstairs" type action going on at collinwood and betty was vicki's half sister.

[D_Friedlander]

It's also true that there are many twists and turns in DS' first year that make it seem like all manner of other resolutions to Vicki's parentage could have been possible. But then it's simply the nature of soaps to throw in all sorts of red herrings to keep the audience guessing - and to potentially even misdirect them. 

I used to think that once the parade of supernatural characters was introduced and wouldn't go away, perhaps not just any boring mortal parentage for Vicki was good enough anymore.  Yes, she very likely had at least one mortal parent, and probably it's one of the still-human Collinses we're familiar with, or a "secret" or previously unmentioned Collins.  But the other party's DNA--- that could have been creative.  For the record, I like the solution that ongoing round robin story "Shadows On The Wall" http://members.tripod.com/~MrJuggins/shadows/wall.htm
developed--- but there are some other fun possibilities, especially in the "Bad Dad" department...

[spoiler]Besides Petofi, Nicholas struck me as a good candidate.  Then there's even Barnabas except if he was out and about in the 1940s some force would have had to keep zapping him (and everyone else) with amnesia and chaining him into his box again.  Or a Leviathan.  Not sure if Quentin could be a contender since he was a ghost during those crucial years, but if there's a "grandfather paradox" time loop. one could argue it was all fated to be anyway--- the writers were handy at twisting that story theme, and the Collinses already had Laura as an example of a literal "incestor"[/spoiler]

[BuzzH]

once the resemblance between Alexandra and Joan was noticed, it was then decided that Vicki would be Liz' daughter.

Actually no, she wasn't.  According to what writer Ron Sproat told fans at a very early con, Liz was NOT slated to be her mother.  I don't know anymore than that, but Selby D. Pearson was there and could probably shed more light on what all Ron said onstage at that con/Fest.

I'm thinking that Vickie and Liz were 1/2 sisters, that Liz's father and Betty Hanscombe, daughter of the Collins butler, got it on and he had to get rid of the evidence.  Anyone who has seen the portrait of Betty will tell you she totally looked liked Vicki.  I wouldn't be surprised if Alex actually sat for the portrait they used.

Selby, are you around?  Let's hear from you about that con. 

[adamsgirl]

As far as Liz goes and her giving up a baby to be raised in an orphanage, I consider that plausible BECAUSE of her stature in the community. Assuming she had an affair and got pregnant, she would avoid disgrace and scandal by doing that. Of course, it really is just an assumption.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Actually no, she wasn't.  According to what writer Ron Sproat told fans at a very early con, Liz was NOT slated to be her mother.

If that's true, then apparently Joan Bennett and Ron Sproat contradicted each other. What a surprise that there would be contradictory info anywhere in the DS universe.   

[BuzzH]

Actually no, she wasn't.  According to what writer Ron Sproat told fans at a very early con, Liz was NOT slated to be her mother.

If that's true, then apparently Joan Bennett and Ron Sproat contradicted each other. What a surprise that there would be contradictory info anywhere in the DS universe.

LOL!  Indeed!  I've seen the interview of which you speak, Selby D. Pearson filmed it in fact at her home in Scarsdale in the late 80's (89?)  Now, it IS possible of course that both Sproat and Bennett were correct.  Perhaps the ORIGINAL intention was to have Vicki be Liz's half sister (or something) hence validation for what Sproat claimed, then DC changed his mind and decided it would be more juicy for them to be mother and daughter.  Who knows?