DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '12 II => Topic started by: michael c on September 16, 2012, 01:48:47 AM
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i'm still desperately slogging through the 1840 episodes...
however once the "witchcraft" nonsense takes on steam i almost have to just walk away. i mean am i missing something here? why on earth are people in the middle of the nineteenth century, the dawn of the modern age, running around babbling about witchcraft??? why is it being taken seriously? by anyone?
by this point in the run did the writers just assume that those "kids that ran home from school" wouldn't know enough about history to understand that this concept was two hundred years out of date? or because it's DS are we just supposed to throw common sense out the window?
or was it just an excuse for jerry lacey to revive his unbearably obnoxious character from 1795?
incidentally who the heck is david selby supposed to be playing here? he looks and acts and talks just like "real time" quentin right down to the glued on sideburns. i'm surprised they didn't try and give him that stupid gramophone just for the sake of brand continuity. is the viewer just supposed to associate him with "real" quentin and thus give a darn what happens to him? i mean he's supposed to be a different character, right?
this storyline kills me. [ghost_rolleyes]
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I'm sorry you're not enjoying 1840. I personally love almost everything about it...including the witchcraft and the trial. Some really great scenes came out of it, such as [spoiler] Desmond grilling Samantha on the stand, Dawson grilling Quentin, the surprise appearance of Joanna, Barnabas triumphanly showing up to defend Quentin to Trask's horror after Trask had walled him up. [/spoiler]
I won't argue that the writers were stretching credibility really wide here and that to be holding a witchcraft trial in the 19th century is silly...but this is a gothic/supernatural show, not Law and Order or CSI. It's not so much throwing out common sense but dispension of belief....I have a great deal of that, and maybe that's why I'm more forgiving of the 1840 witchcraft trial.
I'll take the 1840 Quentin over the 1970 Parallel Time Quentin any day. At least the 1840 Quentin didn't shout and scream all the time and throw a tantrum over the stupidest things.
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I so agree with you. The 1840/41 (and the previous 1970 lead-in line) was the death knell of DS. The whole thing, next to the Frankensienian 1968 plot, was the most ridiculous thing of the whole series. Dan Curtis and the writers got lazy and decided to rehash 1967/1968/1796/1797/1968/1969/1897 into one huge bundle. I'd rather would've stuck with that insufferable pig Jeb and the Leviathans and stay in PT1970 than go through that. PT1841 was even so much better.
Gerard
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The 1840 witchcraft trial was ludicrous, and a very inappropriate recycling of the 1795 storyline (with an extra dose of camp added in.) You're right that we were supposed to take it seriously, care, and, apparently, sit in suspense as to how everything would turn out. I managed none of the above. I feel for you, I was turned off by this ten + years ago when I saw it in the scifi run, and I wouldn't be able to stomach it at all today. It is too bad that David Selby wasn't given an actually distinct character here, though many of the regulars were playing devolved, degenerated, and generic caricatures of people that were once compelling characters earlier in the series.
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yes i definitely "spotted the fin" with the 1968 adam stuff but the show redeemed itself...
this is definitely the "jump the shark" moment. this thing is done.
if i wasn't determined to watch this thing from start to finish i'd skip it.
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I can watch any episode of 1840 over and over. I honestly can't say that about any episode with Jeb in it.
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Come on, I can't be the only one who enjoyed 1840 and appreciates such great characters as Gabriel, Gerard, Samantha, Desmond, Flora, Leticia, etc...
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From a historical point of view, both the 1795 and the 1840 witchcraft hysteria plots are nonsensical. The idea of legal execution by decapitation in 1840 adds an extra note of camp craziness to the proceedings. At least in 1840 the trial scenes do not feature Roger Davis and do have some juicy moments, particularly with the ever sublime Humbert Astredo (although I find Dawson his least interesting characterization).
Lela Swift was the producer of DS during the 1840 period so she gets the blame for some aspects. But she also deserves some praise for salvaging at least some elements from the story outline foreshadowed in the Summer of 1970 period, which obviously was completely unworkable within the limitations of the DS studio. Shipboard trysts between Daphne and Gerard? Coastal raids by bloodthirsty brigands under Gerard's secret command? I'd love to have a clue about the last minute switches in plan that resulted in Swift just throwing it all into the rubbish bin and forcing the writers to start over.
To me, Virginia Vestoff deserves a lot of credit for making 1840 at least occasionally watchable. Her performance of Samantha is actually one of the highlights of the entire series to me, although it is a highlight I revisit very seldom because I find so much of 1840 to be simply beyond the pale.
The character of Joanna was an intriguing touch, and it's too bad the actress (whose name I forget) had such trouble with her dialogue. There were some great moments in how that story played out, particularly Samantha's confrontations with Joanna. Again, Vestoff gets the credit for making all of this play much more brilliantly than would otherwise have been the case.
G.
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yes virginia vestoff's viperous samantha is one of the period's few high points. and any scene with ang at her most deranged is always worth a look.
flora's not bad but lacks the haughtiness that makes a joan bennett characterization so memorable. besides she's a pretty minor character with limited screentime. old timers like joan and louis are clearly no longer the series priorities as the late, younger castmembers dominate the proceedings.
as far as leticia goes she's just warmed over pansey faye for no apparent reason other than that pansey must a have been a popular character at the time. personally i found pansey fun for about five minutes in 1897 and then immensely grating ever after so having a carbon copy of her around for yet another storyline isn't helping.
gothick obviously i'm not through yet but you make it sound as though some of the 1970 mysteries reappear...because for the life of me i cannot see what any of this has to do with tad and carrie, who barely show up at all, the playroom, the java queen or any of the other plot points of the story setup.
i've been trying to figure out what else is missing and i think i know what it is...KLS! i'm not her biggest fan but she certainly lends her distinctively DS presence to all of the other time period and storylines and here her absence feels somehow like a void. while the "josette" element was certainly played out by this point without a KLS character swanning about something feels off.
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another little observation about kate jackson...
she has a natural, understated acting style that's slightly at odds with the high drama, high camp "DS style" of most of her costars. she's almost evocative of first year players like alexandra or joel crothers who behaved like normal people and not some over the top character.
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Virginia Vestoff as Samantha was one of the highlights (maybe the only one) about 40/41. For me, she made the plot watchable.
And I also agree that all the stuff they had in the '70 pre-plot, like the Java Queen and everything else that seemed pertinent, and then just ignoring or brushing it off in 40/41 was very annoying.
Gerard
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i've been trying to figure out what else is missing and i think i know what it is...KLS! i'm not her biggest fan but she certainly lends her distinctively DS presence to all of the other time period and storylines and here her absence feels somehow like a void. while the "josette" element was certainly played out by this point without a KLS character swanning about something feels off.
I think, Michael, that KLS was suppose to play Samantha, but she left the series to get married and head to Europe, so VV was cast in the role. Although VV was superb, it would've been fun seeing KLS finally play a totally nasty character instead of rehashing another damsel in distress.
Gerard
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yes and as roxanne was now barnabas' SYT of choice it would have been interesting to have KLS play a character with no association with josette.
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The witchcraft hysteria of 1840 is no more or less absurd than the nonsense currently being spewed by Rev Pat Robertson on the 700 Club.
But the trial was one of the few things that Sam & Gordon addressed properly in dialogue: doesn't Quentin or someone say "they can't charge anyone with witchcraft--it's not done anymore."
"They can do whatever they want!" replies Desmond. There was also spoken reference to a centuries old law that hadn't been repealed or invoked in years.
So at least there was an attempt to logically explain the behavior of the storyline's villains.
What kills 1840 for me is how Sam & Gordon completely ignore everything they set up during the summer of 1970. Letitia Faye feels shoved in, though the Faye family is given a backstory in the Big Finish CD London's
Burning. No explanation whatsoever as to how the stairway thru time worked, though this was finally explained in Big Finish's CD The Path of Fate. Also, the stupefying deaths of Roxanne, Edith & Angelique in 1840, with no explanation offered as to how these deaths affected 1897 and 1968-1970 storylines.
It was obvious at this point that no one cared anymore. They wanted out, and they got there wish, didn't they?
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Actually, I don't find it totally impossible that an insular, isolated place like Collinsport might give in to witchcraft mania, if it had been done without the knowlege of the outside world. In 1892, Mercy Brown was exhumed and her body difiled in Wakefield, Rhode Island. The town's people thought she was a vampire. A few miles away, the people of Providence were aghast. RI instituted laws about the handling of bodies and requiring post mortems.
Where I part company with 1840 is (and I don't remember if this happened) having a sentence reviewed by a higher court and being upheld. The State of Maine would have sent in the National Guard or whatever.
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I see and acknowledge (and respect) what people are saying in this thread but I can't hold it in any longer...I loved 1840, flaws and all. I also liked Leviathans....so there. [ghost_tongue] [ghost_grin]
Sincerely Love you all, and hugs,
Heather :-*
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i liked leviathans too heather. and i loved 1970 parallel-time. flaws and all. [ghost_wink]
i just can't take this. [ghost_rolleyes]
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This is my least favorite period of the show. DS always required a certain suspension of disbelief from viewers. But there was usually something to anchor it in some small level of reality. None of the story drew me in, nor did I ever get emotionally invested in any of the 1840 characters. I liked Flora a bit but she really wasn't a pivotal character.
I do wonder if Samantha would have turned into such an ultimate bitch if KLS had done the part. Initially, she seems to be a sympathetic character.
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Another thumbs up here for Leviathans.
Two cents: On the fence with 1840 -- saw it in it's entirety once and don't remember not liking it but do remember not liking most of what others in this thread have said they do like about it -- namely: Virginia Vestoff. At least now I am looking forward to seeing it again.
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Unlike 1795 & 1897, the writers didn't really make any of the main Collins family likable. We are supposed to care for them as they are surrounded by evil forces. In this timeline, they are the evil ones! At least Gabriel & Edith should have been sympathetic as Edith had been established in 1897.
An important character missing in 1840 is the "male legacy character", who will continue the family into the present. In 1795 it was Daniel and in 1897 it was Jamison. But here he is away at boarding school and unnamed, so there isn't a direct link to the present family. His parents, Gabriel & Edith, aren't likable at all, where at least one of them should be.
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Evidently the Quentin of 1840 and Daphne didn't have any children, because it's Edith and Gabriel's grandchildren Edward, Quentin, Carl and Edith who are the heirs of the family in 1897.
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true.
pretty much everyone is a creep. it makes for some fun exchanges, but it's emotionally disengaging. and really, after five years it's almost impossible to muster any enthusiasm for yet another round of temporary, disposable characters.
and it's so all over the place it's hard to remember, or care about, why barnabas and julia are even there. even they don't seem to know.
i've said this before but frid, hall and bennett seem particularly exhausted. the five-day-a-week grind seems to have finally worn them out.
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And, if the core audience had trouble following the story, casual viewers must have bailed.
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dear jesus!!!
i just watched the episode where quentin is formally charged with WITCHCRAFT and threatened with BEHEADING.
and who's the judge responsible for this outlandish charge but dr. lang himself ADDISON POWELL! back in action after a two year rest cure. and if he doesn't amp up the camp value of these proceedings no one can!
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There WERE some great Julia moments in 1840, but the fact that Grayson was away for nearly a full month didn't help the later storyline. I really liked Grayson's work as Aunt Julia Collins in 1841 Parallel Time... I think I am in a minority here, but her scenes really rock that storyline for me, and she was in it consistently and a lot.
I liked the initial characterizations of both Gerard and Flora. With Gerard, I found him a lot less interesting after a certain plot development. Flora started out as a frivolous, gushing novelist, but after awhile for some reason just became the latest iteration of the standard Joan Bennett matriarch, but without the edge we got to see in Liz, Naomi and Judith.
The 1970 mysteries WEREN'T resolved in what was shown of 1840. We never knew just why this particular quartet of ghosts was haunting the ruined Great House in 1995, nor what special role Tad and Carrie were meant to play. I thought there was a hint of a nasty sexual edge in Gerard's interest in David in 1970, somewhat reminiscent of the Quint character's implied paedophilia in the original Turn of the Screw novella. The fact that David Henesy left the show during 1840 meant obviously that nothing could be done with the Tad storyline. I've always wondered whether Tad grew up to be the Thaddeus who died in the Civil War.
I don't think the Java Queen was even mentioned in the 1840 scripts.
G.
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yes i was surprised to see that barnabas, julia and angelique...really the only three characters providing the viewer with any story continuity...disappear for many episodes at a time.
they're almost supporting players. the "stars" are the weird 1840 characters.
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Having Eliot Stokes show up was a nice surprise but after his first appearance, the character only appears once before it's time to go home. Why even bother? Were they hedging their bets in case Frid decided to really quit?
And he knows that Angelique is a witch. The Eliot Stokes I remember would not have accepted the idea that Angelique had time travelled and was obsessed with Barnabas. This could have spun into a plot far more interesting than what ended up on screen.
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Gothick, you have nearly broken my heart with your suggestion that Tad grew up to be the Thaddeus Collins who died during and possibly in the Civil War. His death would have cleared the way for Gabriel and Edith's grandchildren. (In an earlier post I mistaken wrote "Edith" instead of "Judith.") But didn't Thaddeus's gravestone at Eagle Hill say that he was BORN in 1840? I just don't remember.
The plot of 1840 was completely off the wall, but the beginning had some great moments. I loved Virginia Vestoff as Samantha, especially the scene where the long-lost Quentin walks in moments after she has married Gerard. Hilarious!
Another good moment is the meeting of the (not-yet-Judah) Gerard and Barnabas, who manage to become enemies in mere moments.
And what about old Daniel meeting Barnabas (again) and telling him, You haven't aged a day!
What a pity that the arrival of Professor Stokes didn't really have much effect on the story line. He was always one of my faves.
But really the best part of 1840 was the whole lead-in from the 1970s mysteries. But I guess I'm almost the only one who liked that part.
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even at it's worst it's still DS which in and of itself has moments of great pleasure.
and obviously watching a series about vampires, witches and time travel demands a major suspension of disbelief on the part of the viewer. still for me the whole thing works better when the foundation of the storyline is based in some sort of reality. and a witchcraft trial in the 1840's is NOT based in reality. while i don't doubt that some of the yokels in a dumpwater town like collinsport still believed in witches in 1840 to base an entire plot on the legal proceedings around it is ludicrous. and that' what the plot in question is based upon. not what the hoi pilloi are thinking but a trial in a court of law.
and i'm sorry but the reverend trask character is a clown. a bozo. a joke. why this guy gets taken seriously in every storyline he shows up in a complete mystery. even jerry lacey himself says in interviews that it was "mustache twirling at it's best". the character is too broad and too campy. it's like watching a cartoon. and nothing ever differentiates the "trask" character no matter what the time period. it's played like it's the same person. sort of like quentin. trask is a "brand" more than a character. to the viewer he's meant to represent the same thing every time. you don't even have to question it. it's boring.
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Maybe the writers were trying to (ahem!) humanize Lamar Trask in 1840 by giving him a love interest in Roxanne--or at least the nearest to love that he's capable of. I enjoyed Jerry Lacey's performances as all of the Trasks. In 1840, he seemed to enjoy the pride that Lamar took in his work.
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For what it's worth, I find each of the Trasks to have some different nuances, I imagine mostly as a result of how Lacy creates each descendant of the original character, that give the different ones more interest than you have found. My vote for the best of them all is Gregory in 1897. He had the most developed personality, I thought, and I actually find his comeuppance to be more satisfying than the original Trask's fate at the hands of Barnabas (I realize most fans would disagree here). I just love Judith's series of phonecalls to her hapless hubby, particularly when she informs him, "now you have all the time you need to meditate." lol!
The 1840 Trask is interesting because he isn't clergy at all--he's been reduced to running a funeral home. One of my favorite moments is when Samantha is discussing the funeral arrangements for Roxanne and she says that "Lamar Trask" (named after Lara Parker, btw) wanted the honor of delivering the eulogy and it gave Samantha "great satisfaction" to turn him down flat. Clearly she despises the man.
The alliance that develops between Trask and "Gerard" probably is a case of wearing out the Trask character's welcome. But it's such fun to watch Lacy chew the scenery that I don't mind.
It's true that a number of characters in 1840 are repeats from the past. Lazlo, Angelique's companion, is one of them. I've wondered why we only see him in 2 or 3 episodes. Perhaps Michael Stroka found more regular work elsewhere?
G.
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true,
each storyline gives the character a slightly different setup. in one he runs a school and in one he runs a funeral parlour.
but essentially lacey gives the same broad performance. the seasoned viewer knows exactly what to expect when he first walks onto the set in the new time period. they always represents the same thing. i swear if he uses this expression "in league with the DEVIL!" one more time i'll scream.
incidentally why is a funeral parlour director acting as the prosecuting attorney in a court of law?
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even at it's worst it's still DS which in and of itself has moments of great pleasure.
So true.
Getting back to the original subject...I think it's worth remembering that the Dark Shadows characters do not live in the same universe as the one that we occupy. In our universe, belief in witchcraft lessened as people learned more about science and about how things actually worked. In the Dark Shadows universe, witchcraft was part and parcel of how things actually worked. Anybody who wanted to repeal witchcraft laws might well be viewed by reasonable people as a starry-eyed liberal whose ideas, if carried out, could endanger all of society. After all, the problem with the witchcraft trials on Dark Shadows was not that witchcraft didn't exist; it was that the wrong person was on trial.
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We are currently working our way through the Midsomer Murders via Netflix streaming. The one we just watched, "The Straw Woman," takes place in Midsomer Parva, a rural English village where some of the townsfolk believe that one woman is a witch. It is a bit of a stretch, but it was first shown in 2004. So I guess Midsomer Parva has carved out a little corner of the DS universe for itself. [ghost_wink]
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That is cool about the Midsomer Murders story, DarkLady. I might have to track that one down and add it to my own Netflix queue.
And I'm sorry I upset you with my speculation about Tad/Thaddeus. For what it's worth, I remember Midnite telling me that I was wrong about that, but I can't remember why. It might have been because of the tombstone you mentioned spotting.
If Tad did marry and father children, we heard nothing about those particular people in the 1897 story. It could make an interesting premise for fanfic.
G.
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Thanks, Gothick, no harm done!
Midsomer Murders is currently in its FIFTEENTH (yup) season. We are close to the end of series 7 and still have quite a ways to go. Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsomer_Murders) a link to a general site, and here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Midsomer_Murders_episodes#Series_seven_.282003.29) a list of all the episodes.
Tad's children: Yes, indeed, an interesting fanfic possibility. Perhaps they chose to stay in Europe. But that also makes me wonder where the Civil War Thaddeus came from.
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Aw, Gothick, I can't imagine I would say you were wrong-- only that I've mentioned that when Amy asked David to identify Thaddeus' portrait in the original timeline, Tad hadn't survived beyond 1840. (I believe David told her that Thaddeus was alive during the Civil War.) We saw a tombstone for a Jonas Collins who died during the war and was born (I think) in 1840; we weren't shown Thaddeus' grave.
But that also makes me wonder where the Civil War Thaddeus came from.
There's a discussion about Thaddeus that starts at the bottom of p. 3 of this topic...
Re: i'm doing 1840...finally
...and Joeytrom suggested an interesting possiblity on p. 4.
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Thanks for the tips, Midnite. I went to that thread and found a wealth of possibilities!
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I remember that post, time has gone by- five years!
I have said before, that for me, 1840 is in another universe which the staircase sent them to.
1897 was the only time that events as mentioned pre-time travel did actually occur.
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gosh i can't believe it's been five years since i started watching this storyline and then put it down.
i strange it took me so long to pick it up again. i guess i mustn't have been enjoying it much then either.
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I went to that thread and found a wealth of possibilities!
Fantastic!
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OK, I got it! 1995, Summer 1970 & 1840 were all set in a third parallel time--so when they went back to 1971, there were FINALLY back in there own time where none of this ever happened. Now to write an audio drama for Big Finish to establish this as canon.
[admin note: the notion of the Big Finish dramas as canon is now being discussed in its own topic: "are the big finish dramas canon?"]
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The problem I see with the Trasks is that even the first time I watched 1897, I thought it absurd that Barnabas simply let Gregory Trask live and cause such harm to the Collins family and others. By 1840, it's even more ludicrous that Barnabas doesn't just brick him up on first sight, given the obvious and predictable damage he is likely to cause to those Barnabas is (supposedly) there to protect. It's gotten old, but the characters themselves don't notice that fact, comment on how this all happened before, or inject some sense into the "story."
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i'll add this if i may...
apart from the implausibility of it, and for reasons and i cannot quite put my finder on, the DS witchdraft trials always lack their intended impact.
it was the same story with victoria's trial in 1795. it was the weak link in a very strong storyline. there's always lots of people standing around yelling, jerry lacey in particular, and they're supposed to be the big climactic scenes of the storyline, but somehow they just fall flat. [ghost_huh]
speaking of victoria i was startled to hear her name mentioned several times during this plot in reference to the 1795 trials. by this point she was so long gone and forgotten it's almost like a hearing a name from another story completely. 1840 is a long way from the hammond foundling home.
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In other news, I agree that the trial scenes in both 1795 and 1840 tend to be a crashing bore, IMNSHO. I do find the 1840 scenes slightly more watchable because the actors involved are more interesting. On the other hand, Roger Davis may be absent in 1840, but we still have to do with Addison Powell.
cheers, G.
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I think that the 1795/96 witchcraft trial would've been more plausible if the characters (meaning, especially, the judges) would've stated that witchcraft was no longer a crime and Vicki/Phyllis could not be tried for it. However, they could be convinced that murder, and the use of witchcraft for that end, is a crime. That would've provided a nice twist.
As for the whole 1840/41 witchcraft/murder thing, feh. It was just a lazy way on the part of the writers and producers to simply rehash. They could've at least kept out the whole witchcraft thing and focused on Quentin I being a murderer based upon evidence, circumstantial or not.
Gerard
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1840 came as such a surprise to me when I was finally able to watch the entire series during its second run on the SciFi channel more than a decade ago. The prelude to 1840—the Summer of 1970 and 1990 Parallel Time--caught my excitement, and 1840 engaged my imagination from the start; my interest never flagged from that point on through the end of the series. It always surprises me when people complain about the inconsistencies of the summer of 1970 or, now, the implausibility of 1840, since implausibility could be said to characterize the entire DS series. And I've never minded that the series left so many loose ends rather than providing neat, satisfying answers to the many tantalizing questions that came up, beginning with Victoria Winters' unknown parentage. As viewers, we sometimes expect and demand neat answers and closure, but as in life and art, those answers and closure are often never to be found.
I loved the characters of Desmond Collins, Flora Collins, and Leticia Faye, as well as the house they lived in. The look of this time period was unique, as each of the time periods (1795, 1897) also was, as far as sets, costumes, and lighting. The idea of Rose Cottage and the mystery surrounding it was one of my favorite things about the entire series. One of the most moving moments in the entire series for me was seeing the aged Ben Stokes living at Collinwood with his granddaughter, and Ben's eventual reunion with Barnabas.
Gerard, I thought, was one of the most intriguing characters on the series: a man of the sea with a hidden past who is acceptable as a gentleman in polite society, displaying social graces and musical accomplishment; was he actually evil, or merely an opportunist as Leticia says at one point? Why was he singled out by Judah Zachary to be his victim of possession? Were they kindred spirits? It's interesting, too, how he has three identities: Ivan Miller, Gerard Stiles, and Judah Zachary.
The mysteries presented in this sequence (what happened in Bedford, for example) and the occult aspects were among the best in the series, in my opinion. 1840 was reminiscent of some of the better aspects of 1897 yet wholly original in how the material was approached and played out. For example, the possession of the children recalled similar happenings in1897, but the details were very different.
The notion of beheading seemed far-fetched but thematically linked Quentin's trial with the events of Judah Zachary more than a century earlier. The living head had to be one of the creepiest aspects of the entire series and touches on mythological stories, as did the ritual mask donned by Gerard.
The claimed implausibility of a trial for witchcraft taking place in 1840 is explained legally: a deadly mix of local hysteria mixes with the fact that the witchcraft laws remained on the books—it would be fascinating to find out if that actually was the case anywhere in New England at the time. The body of a child was exhumed and beheaded in New England around 1850 as fear of vampirism swept the local countryside, and that's just one of many historical 19th century cases (see my posting elsewhere of a link to the current issue of "Smithsonian" magazine). If the beheading of a child's corpse could happen, a trial for witchcraft in a small town is not quite so absurd. As with all of the storylines, there are weaknesses; personally, I did not care for Kate Jackson at all, yet thought she was surprisingly good in "Night of Dark Shadows."
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As with all of the storylines, there are weaknesses; personally, I did not care for Kate Jackson at all, yet thought she was surprisingly good in "Night of Dark Shadows."
Kate's work in NODS was sensational, IMHO. Although I can't recall any specifics about her performance on the series (haven't seen her eps since original airing, and I'm only up to #116 on the DVDs), what I do recall from anything I've ever seen her in shows her to be a master at her craft. I don't think she's received the recognition she deserves.
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true they do offer some rather hasty explanation as to why such a trial would be occurring at such a late date. but still it feels like a real stretch.
i think for me the one of the main problems is the courtroom scenes simply grant too much screentime to two characters i do not care for. i find any and all manifestations of the reverend trask to be the most grating and obnoxious characters to ever hit the series. and storylines that revolve around quentin bore me to tears.
for that reason these are difficult episodes to get through.
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I'm with you, Philippe! I loved the whole mystery of Rose Cottage as well as its cozy little interior. Also, I read somewhere that JB said that Flora was her favorite character.
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For me, the low point of 1840 was the zombie pirate attack on Collinwood. That scene was so bad it was embarrassing! [hall2_shocked]
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For me, the low point of 1840 was the zombie pirate attack on Collinwood. That scene was so bad it was embarrassing! [hall2_shocked]
What happened to those zombies after the attack? Did the sheriff put them out of their misery with a gunshot to the brain? Did George Romero put them under contract? Did they end up working for Haliburton?
Don't get me wrong. I love zombies as much as vampires. Zombies destroying Collinwood, in my humble opinion, was a neat concept (finally, they again had more than five characters doing an episode). But what happened afterward? Wouldn't that have made the national news?
Pirate zombies was a great idea. It was like when they had a movie about Nazi zombies on Elvira. She commented that the producers didn't want to just rehash another typical zombie movie, so she said that one of them came up with the idea: "Hey, let's make them Nazi zombies."
Gerard
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Wouldn't that have made the national news?
I'm sure I read somewhere that Walter Cronkite had a "no zombies" clause in his contract.
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The first 1995 episodes where Julia and Barnabas find themselves in a deserted, ruined Collinwood are some of the creepiest moments in the show's history. But the zombie scene has to be one of the lamest.
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I love those first 1995 episode! So atmospheric! And Julia and Barnabas have such an interesting conversation! It more than makes up for the silly zombies.
In fact, the whole 1995/1970 story line with its big mysteries is one of my faves, although I know I'm in the minority on that. [hall2_cheesy]
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DarkLady, I actually love 1995/Summer of 1970 too. Even though it is at times repetitive, there are some incredible moments. Mad Carolyn in 1995 is one of Nancy Barrett's finest hours on the show. We were on vacation during the 1995 period back during the original broadcast in 1970 and that has always given a certain special quality to those shows for me. I never saw them until the actual year 1995, in fact, if I remember aright.
In 1970, there are so many haunting elements... the night of the sun & the moon ... Gerard's green flag ... Daphne's heavy lilac perfume... the oppressive sense of evil that Julia senses whenever Gerard is near... the weird appearance in town of Sebastian and Roxanne... it's all kind of surreal because a lot of it is never really resolved, and then when 1840 starts up the story goes in a direction quite different from what we had been led to expect.
G.
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i liked the 1995 sequence very much as well. parts of the "summer of 1970" worked for me but somehow it's where i started to drift away from the story.
visually 1840 has a great look. as someone pointed out it's unique to the time period. lots of pretty violets and blues.
maybe it's more a personal burnout on the whole thing than the specifics of the story. who knows. [hall_rolleyes]
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I think it's less personal burnout and more storyline burnout. When I finished my most recent run of the series (the first time I ever watched from the first episode to the last episode), I thought I was over it... for at least a year. Less than a month later, I popped in my Revival DVD. And shortly thereafter, I started the original series again. It was refreshing going back to the basics: Liz, Roger, Vicki, Carolyn, David. It had a certain believability to it, something that is completely absent from a good part of the series. It contained the essence of Dark Shadows.
After so much craziness and off-the-wall plot twists, I think one is bound to want it to be over, just as the writers probably wanted it to be over. At certain points, it ceased to be what made it so great in the first place. It started to mimic itself - think Adam and Eve. But it was able to get back on track every time. 1840 is another time period where it starts off with great promise and then really goes off the deep end - Leticia Faye, the Headless Body, the Possessions. After so many ups and downs, it becomes overwhelming. You still love the actors and the music and the setting. But you just can't take the unevenness in the stories anymore. And you need it to end.
That's one reason I feel 1795 succeeded. (Peter Bradford and some of the witch trial not included.) It knew where it was going. It was relatively concise. It had great characters who were headed towards a certain end. It had purpose. So many storylines lost that initial purpose, though. And that is where I think the problem lies.
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Here's a list of what people found wrong in this topic with 1840. (I thought of starting a poll: “Which problem was the real sinker?” but I did not care to be so negative.) I'm not including complaints about the 1970 lead-up to 1840, and I'm not including complaints that don't seem to be shared by more than one person.
Witchcraft trial: implausible, and done already in 1795
Character reruns:
Trask
Quentin
Pansy/Leticia Faye
Questions from the 1970 lead-up remain unanswered.
Too many unsympathetic characters
So, the bulk of the problems seem to be related to rehashing of ideas and of characters.
My impression is that this storyline was produced when Dan Curtis was losing interest in the series, and when Lela Swift was taking over storyline management. Maybe while Swift was still new at this particular job, she fell back on the old established routines, but once she got more comfortable in the job, and could run a storyline from its beginning, she started to be more creative. After all, whether you like parallel time 1841 or not (and I love it!), it isn't chock-full of warmed-over ideas the way 1840 is.
I thought about making a list of what people like about 1840 as well, in order to be evenhanded, but I thought this was enough for one post. Maybe some other time...or maybe somebody else will do it.
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Nice going Lydia! I liked your list.
IMO, I liked how Barnabas and Julia became closer in 1840...go figure. LOL It wasn't a major part of the storyline, but one can seem glimpses of it in 1840. Again just IMHO! I am a known Barnabas and Julia shipper, so don't knock me too much. lol ;)
The end of 1840 always makes me want to throw a shoe into the TV, because I cannot for the life of me believe Barnabas' declaration of love for Angie. But then again, I am a Barnabas and Julia shipper, so as I said don't knock me around too much. lol
Love you guys, no matter what your opinion is, and love this thread! [hall2_grin]
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I'm a Barn and Julia shipper too, and I'm sure we would have seen them get together at last if the show hadn't been canceled.
The whole business of Barnabas finally declaring his love for Angelique was pretty irritating and was completely implausible to me from the first time I saw it.
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I actually enjoy watching the zombies demolish Collinwood. I don't know why; there's just something about that sequence that rings my chimes (as we used to say in the early Bronze Age when the show originally aired). It was an impossible scene to stage, particularly given that the sets slated to be "destroyed" were going to be needed, probably for the very next day's taping, so I thought what the productiion crew came up with was actually rather imaginative.
As a bonus, you get the extended mix "zombie freakout bongo jive," or whatever the cue is called that plays during the destruction scene.
I thought it was a cheat that Liz's death took place off camera (and pretty much off script--I think there's half a line that mentions attending the funerals of Liz and the children). There should have been at least a scene of Liz confronting the zombies, perhaps defying them, and then the fadeout as the walking dead closed in on the mistress of Collinwood... That certainly would have made for a memorable scene.
G.
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And for later 1840... the Barnabas/Julia scenes are among the elements that stand out, for sure, I particularly like the scenes [spoiler]in the episode when Angelique has lifted the curse from Barnabas; there are a couple of wonderful scenes where Julia is at her most vulnerable and later, with Gerard, her most world-weary and reflective. Great stuff.[/spoiler]
You'll notice that after Barn has declared his "one true love" for our Favorite Witch, it's still Julia who takes care of Barn and cleans up the mess.
"Faithful old Aunt Julia..." glad the show never went on long enough for us to hear THAT line.
G.
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I don't think I could bear to see Liz--let alone David--die at the hands of the zombies.
"zombie freakout bongo jive" [hall2_grin] [hall2_grin] [hall2_grin]
I also like the scene you mention in your spoiler, Gothick. And I love, love, love Julia's flame-colored gown. It's a color I could never wear, but it's gorgeous.
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I actually enjoy watching the zombies demolish Collinwood. I don't know why; there's just something about that sequence that rings my chimes (as we used to say in the early Bronze Age when the show originally aired). It was an impossible scene to stage, particularly given that the sets slated to be "destroyed" were going to be needed, probably for the very next day's taping, so I thought what the productiion crew came up with was actually rather imaginative.
As I stated before, I've always been a zombiephile, as much as I'm a vampirephile. When Night of the Living Dead came out, I so wanted to see that movie, but my mom wouldn't let me, including through several releases. The Roger Ebert article (who actually loved the movie) had gone pre-internet "viral" and ended up in the Reader's Digest, chastising the lack of control over ratings when he saw small children at a matinee who were traumatized (and helped lead to the current maturity ratings we now have for movies). That convinced her not to allow me to see it. I finally did, in my high-school years in the early seventies, at a midnight showing.
So, I loved the zombie decimation of Collinwood (in my pre-seeing NotLD years). I loved seeing them tear the place apart (including the "blooper" where one zombie tosses a piece of cloth on another zombie's head - the latter zombie just ripped it off and kept right on decimating). But it would've been even better if we had seen more characters. I could picture Liz, feeling angst and guilt after someone had taken control of her, barricading herself and David and Hallie in a room as the things pounded down the door. They could cut away after that if the results would've been too horrifying. And also have Carolyn and Quentin, also in guilt and angst, watching it all before escaping.......and escaping into madness. It would've been great.
But that still doesn't answer the question I asked before: what happened afterwards, including to the zombies? Were they still prowling about? Did they collapse after you-know-who sent them on the rampage? Did the sheriff and his officers dispatch them with a bullet to the head? Did they end up working for the IRS? What? They could've done a few scenes or episodes, interspliced with Julia's escape to you-know-where, showing why Collinwood became such a place of terror to the populace and what had happened to Carolyn and Quentin. Both went macadamian, and watching how they were treated and whatelse erstwhile happened to them would've been a treat.
Gerard
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Quentin and Carolyn both survived the disaster at Collinwood, Quentin because he wasn't there, and Carolyn-- who knows?
We already know that Quentin is to all intents and purposes [spoiler]immortal,[/spoiler] but no explanation is ever given for Carolyn's survival. Maybe her mother sent her away or died saving her and she was able to escape--that would be very characteristic of Elizabeth. In any case, Quentin and Carolyn have had about 25 years in which to go mad. [hall2_shocked]
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I think that at point Stokes says that Carolyn was found in the tower room after the destruction of Collinwood with no clear memory of what had happened.
I thought that the realization that acting as Gerard's accomplice helped him destroy the house, leading to the deaths of her mother, Hallie and David sent her over the edge.
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Typical Carolyn, poor dear.