Vicki as Josette

[dom]

I've read, heard, or saw on video that Dan Curtis admitted that he should have had Vicki be the catalyst for the Josette/Barnabas plot, (not Maggie). This was done in the 91 edition, I believe.

I am curious as to how you think this would have changed the original series.

I guess they could have gone the way of Vicki being Angelique's maid who had a tryst w/Barn in Martinique, arrives in Maine reigniting their passion. Angelique would be the fiance who finds out and uses witchery, etc. It would be fun to see an Angelique with power and wealth behind her going over the top in a jealous rage.

I wonder what would have been done with Maggie pre 1795? And would it have made sense for Maggie to be present at the seance that would transport her back to 1795?

AM's eventual departure would have killed the Josette subplot for future arcs. So much would have been different.

Has anyone ever mulled this over? I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

dom

[dvlvan26]

Hey, Cousin!
I have been watching the DVD Sets 1 and 2. I have been wondering why Moltke didn't play Josette during the 1795 storyline.When I watched Box Set 6, I was shocked to see KLS playing Josette. 
I think that Vicki should have been Josette since Barnabas kept saying she was as pretty as Josette.
Also, if Vicki had became Josette,then Josette and Angelique could have become running friends of the occult and would have taught Barnbabs a few many lessons about cheating on both women.

Thanks For The Thought,
dvlvan26

[Gerard]

Well, having Vicki be Josette, including her present-day look-alike, would've opened a whole can of worms regarding the original story.  Would there have been an abduction-of-Maggie plot if she didn't look like Josette?  If that had been eliminated (I doubt if Barnabas would've snatched Maggie because she made a better cup of coffee than Willie, although she probably did), there would've been no need to have Maggie go to the hoo-hoo house and thus introduce a certain doctor who took care of her, and on and on and on.  So, in retrospect, no Maggie as Josette, no kidnaping, no fleshing out Willie's character (when he tried to protect her), no Wyndcliffe, no Dr. Julia Hoffman, no Dr. Hoffman-disguised-as-historian, no attempted cure of Barnabas, no Sarah Collins ghost, you get the point.  Unless they had figured out how to do all that even if Vicki had been Josette.  Otherwise, all those weeks would've had to concentrate more on Jason Maguire's nefarious plans to keep them all from sitting around twittling their thumbs, but that was a good subplot anyway.

Gerard

[PennyDreadful]

  I think the original series of events, with Maggie as Josette's look-alike, works amazingly well.  It adds more richness to that world (everything doesn't revolve around Vickie and Barnabas that way) and created those great scenes with a kidnapped Maggie Evans.  The '91 series did go with the idea of Vickie as Josette's lookalike, and it worked too, but IMO not nearly as well as the classic series' depiction of those events.  The '91 show had less time to play with (one hour a week) so they had to focus more on the main characters I suppose. 

  That being said, I reallly don't think the Maggie/Josette idea would have worked if they had gone the same route with the '91 series' Maggie Evans (Ely Pouget).  She played Maggie as less sympathetic a character than Kathryn Leigh Scott did, and I just can't imagine her as Josette. 

  ~Penny Dreadful~

[Barnabas'sBride]

I think the way the original did it is fine. Maggie may have been the look alike, but Victoria was actually more like Josette in nature.

I like Maggie a lot in the original series and I especially like KLS, but I think if a new show was made and it was a remake (like the WB DS was going to be), Victoria looking like and being a reincarnation of Josette would be the way to go. Because in a night time series, I think having that main tie between Barnabas the vampire and Victoria the lost young woman with no past would be better for the storyline. If they would decide to use both the Victoria and the Barnabas storylines, that would work best. Victoria comes to town and Willie frees Barnabas, almost like it's fate.

However, in the original, the separation of Maggie and Victoria works out good. I'm not sure they could've changed it without altering quite a bit of details, major and minor. I suppose they could've simply had him take Victoria and have Victoria go through what Maggie did. But at the time, Victoria was still considered the "eyes" of the audience in a way and maybe they wouldn't have wanted to do that. I wonder if it would've made people hate Barnabas more, if he did to Victoria what he did to Maggie....

[AndreDuPres]

After watching the pre-1795 sequence again (especially the "dinner party" episodes and those following--arguably some of the best in the series, IMO), I must say Moltke struck me as being more Josette-ish than Scott did.  Moltke would have been a wonderfully sympathetic Josette--those watching the series knew Maggie as the "fast-talking" waitress (or brave, defiant, somewhat crazed victim of Barnabas) and Vicky as the rather moody, sentimental, somewhat sad ingenue, which certainly fits the idea I for one had of Josette.  As it is, I love the 1795 storyline, but Vicky...well, she quickly loses importance (not to mention interest what with her dull relationship with Peter Bradford and all that boring witchcraft trial/Noah Gifford/etc. stuff that bring down the overall excellence of the plot).  I'm not sure how that could have been done better, but I'm always disappointed when I first see Josette appear--she should have been Moltke!  This storyline marks the beginning of Vicky's descent into triteness--this is when begins to utter "I don't understand!" ad nauseum.

[stefan]

This is a very interesting question and I can see how Vickie might have been the first choice or catalyst for Josette given that DS initially started with Vicktoria taking a bus to Collinwood in addition to Vickie's interest in the past. (hope thats right?)

But, as things turned out I enjoy the concept of Vickie (when she was a viable character) being the audiences' eyes and existing outside of the Collins domain. I liked that she was NOT part of the family. That she was an orphan and a stranger and solitary being within Collinwood gave Vickie an undeniable aura despite being essentially a passive backdrop to the swirling drama around her. A Moltka played it perfectly too. Too bad they couldn't keep it up and watered Vickie down to nothing. Oh well..and also, though I've read many don't enjoy the KLS and JF chemistry....don't know how much younger AM was than KLS (if at all) but Vickie seemed way too young for JF. Maybe, it was her little-girl voice.

And, it's kind of quirky that a wistful but hard-working waitress becomes Josette. It convinced me

[michael c]

i'll start by saying that the board has been really fun lately.lots of thoughts and opinions.love it!

personally i think that vicki should have been the reincarnation of josette.not maggie.the story hinted at it strongly early on the way vicki was so perceptive of josette's presence.there was a communication that existed between them that certainly didn't exist between josette and maggie up until that point.and since vicki was rather dreamy and melancholic at heart it would have suited her,more so than maggie,who was more happy-go-lucky.

but on a more cynical note the way that this story progressed probably had more to do with the way that the story made itself up as it went along and who was cast as what.
it started with a bit of frugality according to kls,who said that she volenteered to play the ghostly presence of josette for free,at a time when no one knew that she would ever become a real character.fine enough.
enter frid.he was supposed to be a temporary character.evil incarnate.and up until that point maggie had been a secondary character.seen mostly at the diner,serving coffee,dispensing gossip,flirting with the town's hunkiest fisherman.so it must have made sense that she was the character placed in this situation.not carolyn.and more importantly not vicki.
because at this point in the show vicki still functioned in her original purpose.the innocent ingenue.and if she had been the one placed in this terrible situation it would have been harder to return her to that status.she might have read as "dirty" to the audience.and since at the time this was all supposed to be temporary...why put the ingenue in the middle of it.
remember that while all this was happening to maggie miss goody-two-shoes was up at collinwood comforting elizabeth during the jason mcguire blackmail plot.

but things worked out as they did for a reason.if vicki has been josette than she couldn't have been the one sent back to 1795 to witness the events of that year,which was a great way to tell the story.if a present day character not been "there" the audience might not have been as receptive to the storyline.

[Barnabas'sBride]

That she was an orphan and a stranger and solitary being within Collinwood gave Vickie an undeniable aura despite being essentially a passive backdrop to the swirling drama around her. A Moltka played it perfectly too. Too bad they couldn't keep it up and watered Vickie down to nothing. Oh well..and also, though I've read many don't enjoy the KLS and JF chemistry....don't know how much younger AM was than KLS (if at all) but Vickie seemed way too young for JF. Maybe, it was her little-girl voice.

I agree that Alexandra Moltke was very good in the role of Victoria and I liked the original concept for the character. As for JF and KLS, I always thought they made a gorgeous couple, despite the age difference. And I think there was "chemistry", due to a few really great moments between Barnabas and Josette in 1795 - there just wasn't enough scenes to truly develop it. I believe AM was younger than KLS, though I don't think it's by much. Still, Victoria does seem younger than Maggie, and also Josette, IMHO.

mscbryk - I agree with your points on the possibilities of why they didn't use Victoria, it makes a lot of sense. And I love talking about DS. I could go on forever.

[victoriawinters]

I think time had more to do with the Maggie decision then anything.  When you have a shorter amount of time in which to present a story, you have to move plot points along a little quicker.  In the original series, I think that the Barnabas relationship with Victoria is key for him because he learned to love someone unconditionally.  You see Barnabas moving more and more towards humanity once he begins his relationship with her.  Before that, I don't think he wanted to love, he wanted to possess and was frankly a little selfish.

In 1795, we see him in his pre-vampire humanity be very selfish, his affair with Angelique, killing Jeremiah, his attitude towards Josette post Jeremiah, etc.  He was also capable of good during this time.  His good tendancies, were towards Sarah, Ben and naturally Victoria.

The 1991 Revival follows the Bram Stoker novel a little more closely.  We have the Mina (Victoria) object and Lucy (Daphne).  Lucy has to be staked, etc.

1795 recalls the original role of Victoria wherein we follow her into the story.  It could have worked with someone else.  But, I sort of doubt it with the kidnapping plot.  As others have mentioned, it taints the virginal character of Victoria's character too much.

[stefan]

I always thought they made a gorgeous couple, despite the age difference. And I think there was "chemistry", due to a few really great moments between Barnabas and Josette in 1795

I'm really torn on the "chemistry" thing between KLS and JF. Couple of comments: first - there was probably a 20 or so age difference between them but somehow KLS made Josette seem older and womanly (Maggie younger). Early Josette, like when she first arrived to Collinwood, was gauche and young, but Josette did mature rapidly as things progressed. And by the time Barnabas returned to her as a vampire she was almost an entirely different person. By that time Josette had a haunted doomed and quite mature quality. It can't be sheer coincidence and maybe KLS DID know what she was doing with Josette or the directors anyway. I believe they DID have chemistry but honestly can't explalin why. Some of Josette/Barnie scenes were bad indeed (i.e the early kissing and when Josette found Barnabas half dead after the bite - that shrill scream) but...Josette holding Barnabas' hand before he died and him telling her he always loved her and still did...were quite touching and both JF and KLS were totally on target. I love that scene.
It could be the role scared KLS and she didn't have the maturity to understand why Josette/Barnabas could have an enormous intensity. Maybe JF and KLS did not like each other personally...in any case, whatever tensions that may have been involved with this story or these actors chemistry did seep through somehow.
I like early Victoria Winters, I like the character and actress but never felt chemistry between either JF/Barnabas or AM/Vickie. I thought they made great friends, both could like and respect each other but never felt any romantic intensity. Actually, I thought Barnabas' romantic interest in Vickie was creepy and very artificial not based on any genuine equality in maturity or understanding.


Josette and Barnabas are my all time fav couple

[Barnabas'sBride]

I think the age difference between the two of them seems more pronounced, so it's harder to see them as a couple. I do love their relationship on the show though, because I felt it was genuine. Barnabas' feelings for Victoria did not seem artificial to me (not like Maggie, Rachel, etc...when he was simply looking for Josette), because I think she's the first person in present time that he truly starts to care about:

[spoiler]Despite his plans to turn her into Josette, he resisted biting her (until he was faced with the possiblity that she knew what he was). He didn't allow Lang to continue the experiment with Jeff because he knew Victoria loved Jeff. He got Victoria to tell him the dream curse, knowing he could be turned back into a vampire.  He shot at Adam to keep Adam from killing Victoria when Adam tried to use her to bring back Eve - knowing there was a possiblity that Adam could bleed to death somewhere and he would be a vampire at sunrise. He went back in time to save her and watched, accepting, as she left with Peter Bradford. I always wondered in their last scene together before she disappears into the past, when Victoria tells him that she'll always love Peter despite the time that separates them, if Barnabas doesn't think of Josette, his love that existed in the past, like Peter. I admit I also kind of liked to think, when Victoria says goodbye to the "first" Barnabas before she leaves with Peter, that somewhere deep down a small part of her knew she was saying goodbye to the same man she'd said goodbye to in 1968.[/spoiler]

Barnabas and Josette are my favorite romantic couple on the show. But Barnabas and Victoria would have to be one of my favorite friendships.

My favorite Barnabas and Josette scenes are probably the ones that take place after he's a vampire - the mausoleum scene and the scene at Collinwood in her bedroom. But I also always liked the first scene they have in the old house drawing room, and when he dies.

[Gerard]

I think having Maggie being Barnabas' desire to be Josette worked on many, many more levels (we're talking about the original series here) than if he would've first picked Victoria.  First, Maggie looked like Josette; Vicki didn't.  "Psychologically," that works perfectly.  Whereas Vicki had all the infatuation regarding Josette, and even fantasized about being her, Maggie had no interest, care, concern or knowledge about her, other than maybe one of the old legends.  That would make her a much harder nut for Barnabas to crack.  He came out of the coffin after 175 years angry and bitter and that would make him a shallow, self-absorbed man.  He didn't care, at least at first, about all the nuances of what he wanted to do.  He saw his Josette physically, and that's all he wanted to use.  He loved Maggie's image as Josette, and yet he had no feelings for Maggie the girl - it seemed he actually had a pretty good loathing of her when he abducted her.  He wanted to erase her personality, kill what made her Maggie (take away her identity - what would an angry, shallow, elitist "man" like Barnabas care about some person named Maggie?), and that struggle as presented in those tension-filled months was portrayed brilliantly.  So here you have, to Barnabas, a beautiful young woman who was his physically perception of Josette, yet had none of the personality of his lost love.  Magnificent!

To be honest, if it had been Vicki, Snoozeville.  With her obsession and infatuation, one bite, one playing of the music box, and that would've been all that was needed.  And she didn't even look like Josette.  Where would be the challenge in that?  Might as well just have had Barnabas snatch Mrs. Johnson.  That way, he could've had his Josette and ironed shirts, too.

Gerard

[Misa]

I keep wondering "What if". What if Barnabas had been able to make Maggie believe she was Josette while she was alive, and then turned her into a vampire. I don't think she would have continued to think she was Josette, she would have remembered that she was Maggie once she became a vampire.

If the Dark Shadow writers would have alllowed her, as a female vampire, to  be herself after the change (instead of becoming a nightgown wearing "comic book", or "bad horror movie" version of a vampiress) she would have probably hated Barnabas for what he had done to her, and she would have been horrified about what had happened to her. Then she would probably have gone to Joe; she would have bitten him, and they would have probably left town together.

I also loved KLS as Josette, and AM as Vicki going back to the past to witness what happened, but I do wish that the writers hadn't made her into a dope. This does seem to be when they started the dumbing down of Vicki, and she never recovered. Instead she could have, and should have been our eyes to what happened. I also think that Barnabas should have been the one who was trying to help her, instead of the Peter Bradford character. It would have shown his character to be more caring. We also wouldn't have been subjected to the rather boring love story between Peter and Vicki, and the focus would have stayed on the main story line better. And maybe if Vicki hadn't been turned into a dimwit AM might have stayed on the show.

Misa  

[Luciaphile]

To be honest, if it had been Vicki, Snoozeville.  With her obsession and infatuation, one bite, one playing of the music box, and that would've been all that was needed.  And she didn't even look like Josette.  Where would be the challenge in that?  Might as well just have had Barnabas snatch Mrs. Johnson.  That way, he could've had his Josette and ironed shirts, too.

In order to make it less Snoozeville, Vicki would have had to have basically come to and face reality in the middle of the realization of his obsession. Which could have been interesting in and of itself. With another writing team and another producers one viable way to make her character last longer and for the show to go further would have been to have Vicki gradually wisen and toughen up. They would have needed to introduce a new SYT, but that's really no problem.

In some respects, I think DS borrowed the worst of traditional soap opera story telling and ignored the best.