Author Topic: What is "good horror"?  (Read 6564 times)

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Offline kuanyin

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What is "good horror"?
« on: June 06, 2002, 08:26:53 PM »
Many thanks to Raineypark and Castlebee for helping me to launch a different aspect of a previous discussion!

Rainey, for me "good horror" is what I enjoy! I think people who don't watch either tend to lump slasher and horror films together. I despise the first and love the second. Give me a scary, sad monster, a vampire, a ghost, or similar creatures and I'm there eating it right up. To me there is a huge difference to being scared or grossed out. Love scared. Seeing "The Others" in the theater was incredibly intense for me and it scared me to pieces in parts. It is now one of my all time favorites! Ditto with "The Shining" and "Fallen" with Denzel Washington. But I also enjoy older or campier horror movies that were not made on any where near as professional a level. Not as much, but I do like them. I haven't seen "From Hell" or "Dracula 2000" yet, so can't comment on them. But a friend from church said "Dracula 2000" was fun and had a very interesting religious quality in it that intrigued me.

Yes, I am a VERY religious Christian. I would EVEN say that God and my faith are more important to me than DS! My kids too, but not much else. (I may or may not be kidding, I'm not sure of it myself!) I actually did struggle with the issue of my horror fixation for a while. I decided-oh, to heck with it, I do love it and it doesn't harm my faith. I think it interesting that horror themes are frequently the only ones that allow mention of God and glimpses of crosses. It seems it is hard to show evil without it's holy counterpoint. I find that a good movie/tv show will often get my thinking on some deep theological points. Not something that I got from "Friends", back when I did watch it.

As for kids, I would protect them from the scariest stuff. The midlevel stuff they pretty much decide for themselves. "The Mummy" was too scary for them, they don't want to watch it. It's there when they think they are ready.  A priest at church was commenting once that he just didn't understand why people let their kids dress up as evil characters at Halloween. I told him that I felt the same as he did, before I had children. (The priests in my church CAN marry, but this one is single). Now, I realize that their understanding of vampires and such is so innocent and I want to let them enjoy that aspect of it. I don't need to bring them to another level of understanding the evil those beings represent, they will come to that when they are old enough. My son was a vampire on Halloween, he wanted to be like Barnabas. I would never ruin that for him for some knee jerk reaction that doesn't really understand children.

SO, enough about ME, what constitutes good horror for YOU?
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly, rather than not at all." G.K. Chesterton

Offline Nicky

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2002, 09:01:08 PM »
For me, the scariest things are the things you don't see.  My favorite novel is Shirley Jackson's "The Haunting of Hill House", which was made into one brilliant movie in 1964.  It scares the hell out of me because of what it DOESN'T show you ... like what in the name of hell is that THING bulging the door in like that?!?

I like to pretend the remake doesn't exist.

Nicky
"And the dark and terrifying thing you find there will turn your blood to ice!"

Offline deron

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2002, 09:19:27 PM »
I think suspense is an element to good horror, not to be confused with shock.  

Hitchcock once explained the difference between the two.

Shock is suprising the audience without warning.

Suspense is letting the audience know something is going to happen, but not letting them know exactly when.

The gory movies with shock doesn't do anything for me, but give me suspense and that's what I think true horror is.   Also mix in elements that actually scare you in real life.  When I see a movie like The Haunting, it doesn't do anything for me, because it doesn't look real and everything is shown.

I think, when making good horror, the human element, namely true fear and fear of the unknown or unseen, is crucial.

deron

Offline Raineypark

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2002, 10:11:10 PM »
For myself, the first requirement of a "good horror" experience (TV show, movie OR book) is the element of possibility.  Not that a thing has to BE  real, but that you could imagine it being possible.  For example¢â‚¬¦.I don't believe that Aliens like those in "Independence Day" are out there coming to get us, but I absolutely consider it possible that we are not alone in the universe.  If a premise is so far-fetched that it strains my ability to suspend disbelief,  I'm bored already.

On the other hand, I will NOT sit through any more "Hero Saves World from Terrorists" movies because they are utterly real and no longer entertaining in the least.  Never liked them before, won't tolerate them at all now.

After that would be the use of the 2 elements already described by deron.  Shock is so badly over used in slasher flicks as to render them stupid.  Suspense, on the other hand is much harder to pull off, and much more entertaining.  Understanding that one fact was probably the root of Hitchcock's genius.

With regard to movies and TV, the use of audio effects matters a great deal to me.  We focus intently on visual effects, but for me, the scariest thing can be music or the sound effects.  That was the case, in particular, in both "The Exorcist" ("Tubular Bells" can send me screaming out of a room to this day!!) and in "The Haunting of Hill House", in which the muttering, murmuring voices were creepy beyond belief.

Beyond that, "good horror" is completely a personal preference¢â‚¬¦..I love old black and white "noir" films from the thirties and forties¢â‚¬¦.because I watched them as a child.  Same goes for Sci-Fi flicks from the fifties.  The original "Thing" may look hopelessly hokey now, but it scared the hell out of me when it was new¢â‚¬¦.hideous creature¢â‚¬¦.nerve-rattling isolation on the North Pole¢â‚¬¦..and that CREEPY music!!  :o

 But that's a direct result of my age.

My 15-year-old doesn't "get" them at all, though she's watched them with me.  In fact, her hilariously derogatory comments and "re-enactments" during "The War of the Worlds" ("Mom, that Martian screams like a girl...runs like one too!") has ruined that formerly scary experience for me forever!!  ::)

Well, THAT was more than anyone needed to know about Rainey's taste in horror flicks¢â‚¬¦..who's next?

Raineypark
   
"Do not go gentle into that good night.  Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
Dylan Thomas

Offline Dr. Eric Lang

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2002, 10:39:35 PM »
Quote
Seeing "The Others" in the theater was incredibly intense for me and it scared me to pieces in parts. It is now one of my all time favorites!


I finally rented and saw "The Others" a few weekends ago - what a great movie! Thank goodness I hadn't read or heard too much about it because the ending came as a total surprise. I sat through the whole thing figuring out various scenarios I thought would probably end up being the explanation at the end but when I finally got to the end I was just blown away! Best movie I've seen in years - literally!
:)

Offline jennifer

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2002, 10:40:11 PM »
have to agree with all of you slasher movies aren't even scary just made for teenage boys to see other teenagers slashed (while necking most of the time) while one teenage girl  is stalked[sick]! The girls always seem to be bouncing out of their bras!i did enjoy the first Halloween though don't ask me why!
i do love horror that is King or Alfred H. still find that first shower scene scary as hell![evilg]also love mystery and it is true what you don't see is sometimes far more creepy
than what you do! also love the first Haunting too!

jennifer
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Offline Gerard

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2002, 11:34:03 PM »
I agree that often it's what you DON'T see, or what you THINK you see, that makes for fine horror.  "The Haunting" (Jackson's "Haunting of Hill House") is one mighty fine example.  So is "The Innocents" with Deborah Kerr (upon which a very familiar DS storyline is based) is another.  And then, if more is to be shown, if done with class and style, I would say the Corman/Poe/Vincent Price movies offer a fine example.

Gerard
P.S.  By the way, when I saw the first "Friday the 13th" in the theater, I and my friend actually took out a pad of paper and a pen and began to write down who was getting what when.  While everyone else was screaming, we were sitting there, saying:  "Okay, that was Bambi; she just got the fish skewer through the eye.......No, no, no.  It was Buffy who got the skewer; Bambi got it with the lawn mower.......You're wrong!  Brent got it with the lawn mower, or was that Brad?  Or did Brad get it with the salad spinner?........"

Offline Luciaphile

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2002, 02:14:32 AM »
My components for good horror:
(the top three of which have already been listed by Nicky, deron, and Rainey :) )

Also, I'm limiting this to the cinematic.

1. The unseen.  Stephen King writes about this in Danse Macabre (and then proceeds to not do it in everyone of his books thereafter).  Don't show me the monster behind the door.  I don't want to know that it's 40 feet high and dripping saliva, because anything you can show me is not nearly as bad as what I can imagine it to be.

2. Suspense.

3.  Plausibility.  If you give me a plausible context and believable characters and dialogue, I'm there.  I will willingly suspend that disbelief all the way.  The Blair Witch Project had me terrified for days and it had mostly to do with the fact that I know idiots like those three kids who would do stupid things like not mark their trail before going blindly into the woods.

4. Strong characters.  It can be the villains.  It can be the heroine.  It can be that adorable small child.  If I can't identify with someone (and I frequently can't), then give me someone who will engross me.

5. Atmosphere.  The best horror films/tv shows do this well.  It's hard to explain what I mean, but I think you all know what I'm talking about.  

6. Adequate production values/historical accuracy.  I'm one of those shallow people who will find themselves completely distracted by the fact that all of the women in a Hammer film set in the 1800s have 1960s hair or find myself laughing hysterically at someone being menaced by a vicious plastic vine.  Know your limitations and go from there.  If the Blair Witch crew can take twine, some rocks, and some sticks and scare the bejesus out of me, then it can be done.  If you can't do it, then don't try.  

Tall order, I know.  

This is a great post, btw.  I really don't want to get into the Christianity aspect of it, but it may be of interest to note that most faiths hold that if you're going to accept that there is good, then you have to accept that there is evil which leads into the "if there's a God, then there's a Devil" theory.

Luciaphil
"Some people ask their god for answers to their spiritual questions. For everything else, there is Google." --rpcxdr-ga

Offline Mark Rainey

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2002, 03:56:14 AM »
(One little aside to Gerard: Guess who's sitting here quaffing hot-pepper martinis?)

This is an interesting topic in that everyone is affected differently by the stimuli that horror provides. The world at large tends to equate the term "horror" with Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, and Jason Voorhees, with an occasional nod to Stephen King (in other words, sneering at the whole concept); indeed, the horror field is the ghetto of "serious" literature, oftentimes deservedly. When horror is handled poorly by its creator(s), it rates as one of the lowest forms of entertainment on earth. Almost as low as rap/hip-hop (let's see if THAT opens a can of worms). Nowhere outside the horror field, perhaps, is Ted Sturgeon's postulate that "90% of everything is crap" more graphically illustrated.

I think there is a place for graphic horror; but in small quantity and as a complement to a theme--not as the focus. For example, the original TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE, for all its cheapness and campy style, has a neat little undercurrent of authentic dread running through it (in fact, there's almost no gore in this movie; it's all done by suggestive camera work). Clive Barker has produced some effective material, both literary and film, although he tended to lose focus about 3/4 of the way (to be generous) through everything he wrote during the late 80s through the early-to-mid 90s (I haven't read any of his later work and can't comment upon it). There's a lot of "shocking" horror that has some merit; but the key is in the effect of its execution. And very, very few people have done it well.

Good horror, as in all fiction, requires an emotional connection with the characters, and in horror, it's easy to lose that connection because of the prerequisite need to suspend one's disbelief. As soon as a story goes over the top, it loses its audience if it doesn't provide something or someone to connect with on an intimate level. To agree whole-heartedly with Raineypark, this is why action-adventure films--characterized by the typical fluff of Jerry Bruckheimer, John McTiernan, and John Wu--rarely appeal to me.

The 1990s adaptation of THE HAUNTING characterizes just about everything that's wrong with the horror genre. And like Gerard said, you can predict every moment of a Jason or Freddy film down to a beat. Effective shock depends on effective suspense--for the very reason that "shock" requires nothing more than making you jump; anyone can do that. And most fright flicks just want to make you jump rather than tremble first. It requires considerably less brain power to induce a shock.

I detest the ubiquitous quip that audiences of today are "more sophisticated" than they used to be. What a load of crap. By and large, audiences today might be able to identify CGI, and they might quibble with a made-up iguana masquerading as a Tyrannosaurus, but they've lost a lot of their imagination. They laugh at the original, classic THE HAUNTING while extolling the virtues of the newer one's special effects, but that's because they've come to expect every detail being spoon fed them. The sounds of the reverberating booms through the halls of Hill House, without apparent source, are a thousand times more frightening than a silly pendulum whipping out of a fireplace to knock the head off of an unsuspecting actor. People nowadays are much happier with the avenging ghosts of wronged children than an unknown, inexplicable thing that might not be a ghost at all because they have a pat explanation. There's no need to engage the brain and ingest, interpret, and otherwise interact with the story.

Actual horror (not to be confused with terror) is the realization of sheer futility in the face of something beyond acceptance, whether that thing be supernatural or as human as you or I. You might know horror when you realize you are going to die because you are a passenger in a plane that's about to crash into a building. You're completely helpless. Worse, you're either a pawn or merely insignificant to the force that has devised your end. That idea, to me, is the appeal of Lovecraftian fiction, with its accompanying mindless, ambivalent, but altogether destructive entities; there's no more reasoning with them than with a shark. Yet there is purpose behind them. They aren't just there to make you jump out of your seat.

Exploring the emotions of horror and terror generate adrenaline; I think that's why many of us enjoy the genre. I think a lot of my interest in horror derives from the same source as my enthusiasm for roller coasters. But for the roller coaster to be effective, there has to be a gradual, logical build-up before the great descent. The big hill is the not the whole experience; just a part of the ride.

Lastly, since in most horror stories, death is involved at one point or another, there's hardly a better field where religion and philosophy can be explored at their farthest bounds. After all, we're all going to die. There's a certain fascination with that idea. Few of us know how we're going to die. In a story or movie, if we're engaged with a character and he faces a ghastly fate, we're there with him. If the [writer/actor/director/insert appropriate creative individual here] has done his job, for those few moments we experience the same thing vicariously. We're engaged emotionally as well as intellectually. To me, getting both is what good horror is all about.

[shadow=black,left,300]--Mark[/shadow]

Offline jennifer

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2002, 04:22:29 AM »
Oh Mark forgot to mention your books in my post of horror I love! :o

jennifer
(and yes this is buttering up to get you to write more of your story)
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Offline jennifer

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2002, 04:24:44 AM »
Quote
My components for good horror:
(the top three of which have already been listed by Nicky, deron, and Rainey :) )

Also, I'm limiting this to the cinematic.

1. The unseen.  Stephen King writes about this in Danse Macabre (and then proceeds to not do it in everyone of his books thereafter).  Don't show me the monster behind the door.  I don't want to know that it's 40 feet high and dripping saliva, because anything you can show me is not nearly as bad as what I can imagine it to be.

2. Suspense.

3.  Plausibility.  If you give me a plausible context and believable characters and dialogue, I'm there.  I will willingly suspend that disbelief all the way.  The Blair Witch Project had me terrified for days and it had mostly to do with the fact that I know idiots like those three kids who would do stupid things like not mark their trail before going blindly into the woods.

4. Strong characters.  It can be the villains.  It can be the heroine.  It can be that adorable small child.  If I can't identify with someone (and I frequently can't), then give me someone who will engross me.

5. Atmosphere.  The best horror films/tv shows do this well.  It's hard to explain what I mean, but I think you all do.  

6. Adequate production values/historical accuracy.  I'm one of those shallow people who will find themselves completely distracted by the fact that all of the women in a Hammer film set in the 1800s have 1960s hair or find myself laughing hysterically at someone being menaced by a vicious plastic vine.  Know your limitations and go from there.  If the Blair Witch crew can take twine, some rocks, and some sticks and scare the bejesus out of me, then it can be done.  If you can't do it, then don't try.  

Tall order, I know.  

This is a great post, btw.  I really don't want to get into the Christianity aspect of it, but it may be of interest to note that most faiths hold that if you're going to accept that there is good, then you have to accept that there is evil which leads into the "if there's a God, then there's a Devil" theory.

Luciaphil


Luciaphil this is the exact post my sister would post!
she likes Tall orders too!

jennifer

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Offline Nicky

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2002, 05:15:54 AM »
It's interesting you should mention "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre", Mark, because I was just thinking of it while reading about slasher films in other responses to this topic.  I saw it for the first time two summers ago, and rewatched it with my friends this past spring.  It's the most recent film that has scared me consistently throughout, and you're right:  that sense of dread that permeates the entire film is palpable.  "TCM" is one exception to the "slasher films aren't generally scary" rule.

I'm a big fan of old ghost movies in general:  "The Innocents" and "The Uninvited" are two examples.  As far as other ghoulies, ghosties, and long-legged beasties, werewolves hold the title.  Vampires, I've always thought, are sexy as hell, but werewolves are just plain terrifying, mostly cuz they just wanna eat you.  When I was 7 or 8 I was mesmerized by "American Werewolf in London" and "Silver Bullet", both which scared the living hell out of me.  They still do.  Werewolves, man ... brrrrrr.

Nicky

PS -- Luciaphil darling ... good point re: Stephen King in Danse Macabre.  I love the man and adore 85 percent of his work (and I really can't say a bad word about him; when I was in 2nd grade, the man sent me an autographed copy of "Cycle of the Werewolf" with the script included, knowing full well I was a 7 year old kid in MT, so I think I owe him considerably), but you're right ... he points out how scary it is not to rip the door off, and then promptly rips the door off every friggin' time.  Go figure.
"And the dark and terrifying thing you find there will turn your blood to ice!"

Offline Gerard

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2002, 05:58:18 AM »
Quote
(One little aside to Gerard: Guess who's sitting here quaffing hot-pepper martinis?)

[shadow=black,left,300]--Mark[/shadow]


You shall be hearing from me, Master Rainey, of my experience of reading your chapters while enjoying the spirits of a Skyy Blue Vodka.  And whilst I enjoyed your bard, there actually was a thunderstorm underway.  But for the details, you must wait!

Gerard

Offline Luciaphile

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2002, 06:00:04 AM »
Quote
It's interesting you should mention "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre", Mark, because I was just thinking of it while reading about slasher films in other responses to this topic.  I saw it for the first time two summers ago, and rewatched it with my friends this past spring.  It's the most recent film that has scared me consistently throughout, and you're right:  that sense of dread that permeates the entire film is palpable.  "TCM" is one exception to the "slasher films aren't generally scary" rule.


Eons ago, I took a film class called "Modern Monsters" and Texas Chainsaw Massacre was one of the movies we screened.  It didn't scare me, but I think that being scared is a highly subjective and personal thing.  On the other hand, one of the more disturbing aspects of the film was the feeling I got that of otherness.   The protagonists, disagreeable as I found them, are from our experience, our world, if you will.  

They arrive in the area still believing that they're in that same world and that their ways are superior to that of the locals.  Part of the horror is realizing that they don't belong.  They're not on the top of the food chain anymore ;)  In short, that they are the hunted (and that's kind of a primal fear).

There's another low budget horror film that sort of speaks to that, albeit from the other side of the coin.  Carnival of Souls was the low-budget offering of Herk Harvey who before and since produced industrial films.  They shot the thing in Lawrence, KS and for the most part, I don't think the actors ever appeared in anything else again, but it's a surprising effective movie.  They use that same theme of displacement/belonging.

Luciaphil
"Some people ask their god for answers to their spiritual questions. For everything else, there is Google." --rpcxdr-ga

Offline Mark Rainey

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Re: What is "good horror"?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2002, 06:01:03 AM »
Quote
My components for good horror: (the top three of which have already been listed by Nicky, deron, and Rainey)....

Luciaphil, that was a perfect post. I didn't see it until after I'd written mine, so some of mine was almost superfluous in comparison. Your categories and descriptions of each nail it quite well, especially the plausibility factor. So many horror stories fail because they don't even set up an internal logic; therefore, to my mind, they fall apart before they begin.

Quote
Oh Mark forgot to mention your books in my post of horror I love! (and yes this is buttering up to get you to write more of your story)

Hmm, I wonder if Jennifer is trying to get me to write more of the DS story. I shall have to go and ponder this cryptic and mysterious note.  ;)

Thanks.

[shadow=maroon,left,300]--Mark[/shadow]