Will the REAL Angelique please stand up!

[Countess]

I've always been bugged by that scene in 1840 when [spoiler]Barnabas declares his love to a dying Angelique.[/spoiler]  Seemed to me that the "redemption" of Angelique during that time period was intended to make the future relationship between Catherine and Bramwell more palatable to viewers who had come to loathe what the witch had done to Barnabas.  Even so, I didn't buy it as a kid and I still don't.  Anyone else feel manipulated by that scene?

Countess

[ProfStokes]

Absolutely, Countess!  After watching four years of bad blood between these two, I felt like that scene was a slap in the face to the audience and an insult to Sarah, Josette, Jeremiah, Naomi, Roxanne, Vicki, Elizabeth, Dr. Lang, Ben Stokes, and everyone else who suffered either directly or indirectly from Angelique's evil.

 I have never understood the rationale for Barnabas's feelings.  One day, Angelique is turning his crush-of-the-month into a vampire, threatening to kill his dear friend Julia, and making snide remarks about his dead sister; practically the next day Angelique is his confidante and the apple of his eye.  This transition was much too sudden for me.  I might have been willing to believe that Barnabas's attitude toward Angelique had tempered if this had occurred in 1970--after battling Count Petofi and the Leviathans together, these two seemed to have developed a truce, or at least a degree of mutual understanding [spoiler](although after appearing to have matured, Angelique slid back into her old ways and used witchcraft on Maggie and Quentin, proving that she hadn't really changed after all)[/spoiler]  --but even still the thought of them together leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I suppose we're supposed to think that [spoiler]Angelique curing him of vampirism was a sign that she was willing to let bygones be bygones and reform, but even that twist felt contrived.  In no other time period was Angelique ever able to undo her spell; why was she suddenly able to do so now?[/spoiler] 

The outcome to 1840 doesn't make sense in terms of the story or in terms of Barnabas's character, and moreover I think it's morally wrong because [spoiler]I see it as rewarding Angelique for her centuries of heinous behavior by giving her what she's tried all along to win through illegitimate means.  Yes, ladies, stalking, smothering, and cursing the man you love, even hurting and killing the people he loves is a perfectly appropriate way to win his affections; after all, it worked for Angelique.[/spoiler]  No offense intended to B/A fans, but IMHO, the pairing is sick in so many ways.

ProfStokes

[PennyDreadful]

 In the immortal, sarcastic words of Magda Rakosi regarding Barnabas and Angelique,

 "Hmph!  They deserve each other!"

 It was definitely a sudden change of heart though.  Who knows what would have happened between those two had the series progressed (since Angelique never stays dead).  Something tells me their respective volatile natures and their past history would have caused very serious problems over time, and if Josette (or anyone resembling her for that matter) ever returned, I'm certain the Barnabas/Angelique union would not have lasted.  Barnabas would love Angelique until "Josette" showed up again.  Then, of course, he'd lose Josette (again) and Angelique (again), go through another "rebound" phase of longing for another Roxanne or Vicki-type character, and then start the whole crazy cycle all over again.  Yet through it all, poor Julia, tormented by unrequited love, would be waiting and hoping.  Such is the strange, sad romance of the infamous Dark Shadows love rectangle - Barnabas-Josette-Angelique-Julia.

~Penny Dreadful~

[Luciaphile]

I have never understood the rationale for Barnabas's feelings.  One day, Angelique is turning his crush-of-the-month into a vampire, threatening to kill his dear friend Julia, and making snide remarks about his dead sister; practically the next day Angelique is his confidante and the apple of his eye.  This transition was much too sudden for me.

My theory is that Barnabas no more loves Angelique than he loves Maggie or Roxanne or Kitty. Hang on before you all stone me.

With Maggie, Kitty, Rachel, I think when he sees them he idealizes them. He treats them as replacements for Josette. He really doesn't care about who they are as people. It's all about fitting them to a mold.

As for the mold herself, Josette, I think there's something off there. Not with her, but with him. I mean, if you think about his father, his mother, his aunt, and most notably the way his father treats his mother, something is wrong. Naomi is a beautiful woman who has no responsibilities. She's supposed to wear pretty clothes and let someone else run the household (very uncharacteristic for the period). I get the feeling that Joshua put her on a pedestal when they first got married, kept her there, and is now horrified to learn that she's never wanted to be up there--which she expresses by drinking. Barnabas sees Josette and she's the cat's meow. He's got the beautiful room for her and he's ecstatically happy, but there's not a strong sense that they are going to be partners facing life's troubles together. No, he'll be putting her on her own pedestal.

Vicki is anomalous to me, so I'm going to ignore her for the moment. I think she started out like the Josette clones but it turned into something else.

With Roxanne and Angelique, my take is that he "falls in love" because it's an avoidance tactic. He's in love with being in love. There's Roxanne in all her pointy-glory lying on a slab like Sleeping Beauty and he determines he loves her. Something similiar with Angelique. I think he's locked into patterns of behavior. He's in love with the drama and the romance and she's there and he's got other issues he'd rather not deal with.

My rationale anyhow.

[Mysterious Benefactor]

My rationale anyhow.

Actually, I think your take is an excellent analysis. 

Something tells me their respective volatile natures and their past history would have caused very serious problems over time

Exactly.

[Barnabas'sBride]

Absolutely, Countess!  After watching four years of bad blood between these two, I felt like that scene was a slap in the face to the audience and an insult to Sarah, Josette, Jeremiah, Naomi, Roxanne, Vicki, Elizabeth, Dr. Lang, Ben Stokes, and everyone else who suffered either directly or indirectly from Angelique's evil.

I agree 100%. I actually haven't seen that famous scene, and I don't even want to. I don't believe Barnabas would ever feel that way about her, after everything she had done. She was responsible or indirectly responsible for so many things - things that happened to him and things that happened to everyone else, people that he loved throughout the series. It cheapens his love for a lot of other people - people like Josette and Victoria, and his family as well as the present day Collins family. I just don't buy it.

I like the character of Angelique and I like the dynamic of their relationship - when it comes to them being enemies and her obsession with him. The ending between the two of them just doesn't sit well with me and I view at as a writers blunder and tend to ignore it otherwise.

[ClaudeNorth]

Personally, I love that scene because I believe that Barnabas and Angelique are true soul mates.  I also believe that Barnabas never really loved Josette.  If he truly felt that Josette was the great love of his life, then why was he sneaking around with Angelique?  I feel that he viewed Josette as the ideal woman for someone in his social position, and over the years, built her up into a mythical creature.  I believe that Angelique was the one he really wanted, and that Josette was the one he felt that he should want.  The irony, and the power, of that scene between B and A is that if Barnabas had recognized his true feelings in the first place, he would have saved himself and everyone else a great deal of pain and suffering.

[Barnabas'sBride]

While watching the 1795 flashback, I definitely felt that Barnabas truly loved Josette. I also got the impression that the fling he had with Angelique was before he and Josette had much interaction, before he fell in love with her (Josette).  I didn't believe he loved Angelique or wanted to be with her the way he did Josette. For him, the relationship he had with Angelique was a fling and not based on love but on lust. It was Josette he fell in love with and wanted to be with, and I don't think it was just because of her station.

I don't think he loved Angelique in 1795. He wronged her for sure, but then again the punishment sure didn't fit the crime.

That's just how I saw it.

[tripwire]

Very well said Countess and Professor....There is no way in Hades i could ever have had feelings for her, except pure hatred and rage, and to top it off, when you think you have killed her by burning her up, she returns to torment again    If i was Barnabas, i wouldnt have had Sam Evans doctoring up that painting of Angelique, i would have had enormous pleasure  "making over" the _itch  

[stefan]

I have never seen Angelique's redemption and never plan to. Just the thought of Barnabas deciding at long last Angelique was his true love is very disturbing to me.
Even as a total Josette/Barnabas fan I could somehow stomach theories that Barnabas might have initially perferred Angelique but that "class" and "social obligations" kept them apart. But there is no excusing and denying what Angelique became responsible for. 

[michael c]

i haven't seen those episodes yet either(and may never,the idea of 1840/1841pt is too far removed from what i really like about the show to hold much interest for me)but isn't the idea of a barnabas/angelique love affair one of the oldest storytelling cliche's in the book?:to have long standing rivals/enemies suddenly profess thier love for one another.in terms of a television show it's often employed to bring fresh story ideas to a worn-out formula(think sam and diane).
perhaps by this point in the show the writers felt that they had gotten all they could out of barnabas and angelique as enemies and thought that this could lead in a new direction(especially since kls had left by then and a new "josette" clone was not possible).they probably didn't count on the loyalty of most fans and their refusal to accept this unlikely turn of events(or that people like us would still be analyzing the story 35 years later).

[ClaudeNorth]

isn't the idea of a barnabas/angelique love affair one of the oldest storytelling cliche's in the book?:to have long standing rivals/enemies suddenly profess thier love for one another

True, but that plot device normally starts out with a antagonistic relationship that masks an attraction.  With Barnabas and Angelique, they started out as lovers and became enemies.

I know that for many fans, the Barnabas/Josette romance is the heart of DS, but cynic that I am, I never quite bought into it.  I always felt that Barnabas loved the idea of Josette more than he loved the actual woman.  For me, the real tragedy of the Barnabas/Josette/Angelique triangle is that he was so in love with that image that he failed to recognize that he had the love of a real woman.

[Barnabas'sBride]

I know that for many fans, the Barnabas/Josette romance is the heart of DS, but cynic that I am, I never quite bought into it.  I always felt that Barnabas loved the idea of Josette more than he loved the actual woman.  For me, the real tragedy of the Barnabas/Josette/Angelique triangle is that he was so in love with that image that he failed to recognize that he had the love of a real woman.

I don't think it was love Angelique felt for Barnabas as much as it was pure obsession and the need to possess and control. Not only that, but she also very much desired to be above her "station" and Barnabas certainly would've provided that (did, in their very brief marriage). I don't think her feelings for Barnabas were based love (not genuine love anyway). She couldn't stand getting burned. She couldn't stand the fact that he rejected her and chose Josette (someone she was already plenty envious of because of Josette's wealth and status).

As far as Barnabas and Josette goes, I really wish they had taken more time in 1795 to establish them instead of automatically bringing Angelique in to start the conflict. The only problem I see with Barnabas and Josette is that they didn't get enough development. But I was convinced by what we did see that they both loved each other and would've had a happy life together, unlike Joshua and Naomi. I didn't get the impression that Joshua felt for Naomi when they first married the way that Barnabas felt for Josette (was there a scene that gave background like this on Joshua and Naomi?) I think it isn't until his family is destroyed that Joshua realizes what he had and recognizes his love for them, Naomi included.

[Countess]

Wow, cousins, you really surprised me!  I thought I was going to get crucified for this topic. .  Lots of interesting points expressed though.  Yeah, enemies becoming lovers is an old soap opera ploy, but doesn't exactly fit the bill when one of the pair practically annihilates your entire family.     I don't question that Barnabas loved Josette but used Angelique for sex.  Back then, men wanted their future brides 'virginal' and went elsewhere for sex.  As for Angelique wanting to better her station - couldn't she have done that for herself using her witchcraft?  And I was always amused that in every incarnation, this admittedly beautiful creature had to blackmail, threaten or enslave some poor schmuck into marrying her.  Except Sky - but he knew what she was and used HER!  I mean, what's wrong with this picture?  Does this not show a pattern of obsession, of needing to control people?  So I still suspect that the 'redemption' of Angelique was a plot device to prepare the audience for the Bramwell/Catherine story.  Otherwise, what a shock to the system that would have  been.  Even so, the storyline, IMHO, bombed.  Great feedback on this topic, cousins. Thanks!

Countess

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Wow, cousins, you really surprised me!  I thought I was going to get crucified for this topic. .  Lots of interesting points expressed though.  ...  Great feedback on this topic, cousins. Thanks!

I agree that it's been a wonderful discussion - but it's also the type of discussion that we love to have on the forum, so there was no need to worry that you might be crucified, Countess. 

I still suspect that the 'redemption' of Angelique was a plot device to prepare the audience for the Bramwell/Catherine story.  Otherwise, what a shock to the system that would have  been.  Even so, the storyline, IMHO, bombed.

Well, I don't know about that. 1841PT definitely has its fans (I'm one  ), and Catherine and Bramwell certainly have their champions (ROBINV just might be their biggest  ) - but that's all an entirely different discussion.