ShadowGram Update #164

[David]

Midnite:

if the behavior becomes so abusive and vindictive that it drives good people away for good, then yes, the bad folks
should be given a choice:
change or leave.

To do anything else only serves to make our small cult even smaller, which is not good.

Your wonderful board thrives in part because you do not allow such behavior here.
The DS Usenet board, and the Barnabas Undead forum were literally destroyed because trolls and hatemongers were allowed to run wild.
People left those boards in droves because of this.

David

[joe integlia]

a fan has already been banned for his behavior. i agree with david. nancy, i dont think the situation with that fan that yelled at kls was handled very well. he was up there screaming at her for a good few minutes before anything was done and he was not kicked out and caused another incident the next day with david selby and he still continues to attend festivals. yet 20years ago an attendee was banned for his rudeness and other matters but didnt cause the kind of disruption like what occurred at the festival a few years ago.


[edited by mod.]

[David]

Thanks, Jimbo.
You're lucky that you never experienced these things, but I have and so have many others that I've talked too.

Very few say: "I'm sorry this happened to you. Please come back." Though I do hear that at this board, thanks to all kind posters here.

At the fests themselves, most say: "You deserved it. Get over it."
I've actually been told this by THREE fest committe members, one of whom told me, IN WRITING, that [edited] was going to drive me out of fandom because I was bad for fandom's "morality".
Because I'm an openly gay man not afraid to discuss my sexuality.
I recieved hate mail from a number of this [edited] friends, some of whom I barely knew.

After awhile you say F~~~ it!

David

[David]

I hope people realize that I honestly love DS.
The show influenced my whole life.
I'm a classic horror film fan because of DS.

I've made two films that were commercially released on video,
I now do film reviews for various publications.
It's DS that inspires me to do this kind of work, and I've written about the show many times~~several of my DS articles are archived here and at Ms. Criseyeds's site.

If I didn't love DS, if I didn't care enough about the franchise's continued survival, I would not raise these issues, which should have been raised long ago.

David

[Nancy]

Come on, Nancy, you know what goes on at these festivals.

I knew nothing about the things that happened to you until you told me, David.  I was sorry to hear it happened and it was so upsetting to you.  But it did not impact the overall festival experience for the majority of the fans.

You know how vicious some of the hatemongering has been, because you have also been subjected to it.

Stupid comments by stupid people.  I don't choose to give knuckleheads the power to upset me or impact how I choose to spend my free time.  I have so many other things to be concerned with on a day to day basis that really matter.  What happens on a weekend once a year or every other year isn't about to make much of a dent in my life or concerns.  Same with the internet.  The fact I acknowledge something nasty has happened doesn't mean it seeps into every aspect of my life or being.

Sure there are good people at these things, and you., Nancy, are among the best.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

But the bad folks are REALLY bad, displaying a vindictiveness that would never be tolerated at any other
event.

If the vindictiveness is not disrupting the event, there isn't anything anyone can do about it.  Again, we are all adults and not expected to police the event looking for people who are having personal disagreements and offering to mediate. 

The vindictiveness you are speaking of and the cheering on of such behavior does indeed happen on a world scale.  If you have ever watched CNN after a bombing of US forces, the party taking responsibility have their supporters who are jumping and cheering in the streets at the deaths of Americans.   They cheer as colleagues drag the charred bodies of killed servicemen through the streets.   There was cheering in the streets and great celebration when the Twin Towers collapsed killing thousands of people.  It might be you are not aware this behavior has gone on since you stated that the cheering of vindictive and nasty behavior is the monopoly of the DS festivals.    Do forgive me if I get more upset over what I described above (and even then, I can't change the behavior of those people) than what some jealous or silly fool says or does at a soap opera fan gathering. 

I know plenty of good people who, like me, no longer attend the fests because this behavior is often allowed to spiral out of control.

That's a good solution for them if they are that upset about personal disagreements that go on.  However, unless and until it disrupts the proceedings at the festival no one can do anything about it.

Throwing the bastards out is not babysitting, it's enforcing rules of decency and civility, which all public events need.

And that is already in place.  If someone is stalking or harrassing you at a festival you need to tell one of the security volunteers.  I don't know of a single instance where you have done that since 1984 when I have attended and been involved.

I know I am already going in circles with a subject that is not on topic for this thread.  On another thread where this is the topic I would discuss more but I think I will cool it now.  I don't know what else to say about it other than I am sorry you have had the experiences you have had. 

Nancy

[jimbo]

Thanks too David. Sorry for the problems you had with those individuals but you seem to have a strong will so hang in there and hope you will give the Fest another opportunity. You might be surprised.
I think Nancy is right. Perhaps these matters should be discussed in another topic thread.

Wish you the best.

Jimbo

[Midnite]

First off, calling other fans names is not allowed.

Second, David, to further clarify what I said earlier in this topic, you may not provide further information about the identity of the person or persons you have publicly accused of harassment or slander:  No sex, name, location, position, occupation, etc.  The Forums welcome DS-related discussions (we're thrilled that fans find this a safe place to share their thoughts!), but not at the risk of liability.

if the behavior becomes so abusive and vindictive that it drives good people away for good, then yes, the bad folks
should be given a choice:
change or leave.

Well, I respectfully disagree.  Behavior between adults that leads to hurt feelings is terrible, but it's not a security issue, and I don't believe that fan politics should be the Festival's concern.

[David]

I  do think it's important to say that Fest Committe members take part in these actions, that speaks volumes
for how bad the problem really is.

The system will no longer let me modify the post where I mentioned a committe member's gender.
Please feel free, mods, to change that to a generic word.

While I'm determined to bring these issues out in the open, I also feel it's important to follow board rules.

David

[MsCriseyde]

Just to clarify my earlier remarks in response to some of the subsequent posts in this thread . . . I do not feel that it was the responsibility of the volunteers at either event during either incident to prevent what happened.

One incident occurred outside the door of my hotel room. I don't expect volunteers to be hall monitors. Had the incident rattled me that much, I would've contacted the hotel desk, but I didn't. In defense of the hotel, they did have security strolling down that hallway at fairly regular intervals, so there's not much more they could've done.

The other incident involved questions that were not really appropriate, but there is such a thing as free speech. I would hate to see volunteers constantly eavesdropping on conversations and telling fans to stifle themselves or risk being tossed out the door.

David, please don't take this the wrong way because I do think that incivility is repugnant, but the only vicious remarks I've heard about you have come from you via your repetition of remarks you have attributed to others. I'm not questioning the veracity of your statements or the false nature of the things that you say were said about you, but, by repeating them so often, you're just continuing their circulation rather than putting them to rest.

[David]

Dear Ms. Criseyede:

With all due respect to you & the mods, I keep these incidents alive because I'd love to see fandom change for the better.
Then I'd consider returningto the fests.

Any lawyer can tell you that opinions are protected free speech, but slander/defamation of character are not.
I was accused of public masturbation and child molestation by a fest committee member, a stunning example of how bad things are.
In the past year, I've spoken to two fest attendees who remember this well.

Last year, I read how disgusted the mods of the Barnabas Undead forums were with the behavior of more than a few fans.
So disgusted that they shut  their forum down for good.

So I pose this question again:
can our small little cult TV show, which no one wants to air anymore, survive if these incidents are allowed to continue and drive fans away?

There are good people at this board.
I hope more will speak up so things can change for the better.

David

[Midnite]

So disgusted that they shut  their forum down for good.

The Barnabas Undead forum was devoted to the 2004 remake.  When the WB took a pass on it, leaving the pilot unfinished, the owner decided that the undertaking wasn't worthwhile for a defunct project.  Internet trolls are only a minor part of the work that goes into running a message board, and I'm sure he encounters them at least as often on his huge KryptonSite.

[Brandon Collins]

What a lively discussion! And here I am coming into days later....

When I went to this past fest I didn't find anything offensive or uncivil about it. Granted, there were a thousand people there, so I might have missed incidents, had there actually been any, or I simply forgot about them because I didn't deem them important. Sure, there were a couple of different people who got on my nerves because they seemed to be hogging the "spotlight" or what have you, but you have to take into account that this might be their first and last fest all wrapped up in a nice package, so I let that slide.

The fact of the matter is that no matter where you are-- high school, public events, work etc-- there will always be a group of people whose sole purpose is to put others down. I'm sure there was a group at the fest this past year, even though I didn't actually see or speak with them, because there's at least ONE person like that. Someone will always be making a comment under their breath "Oh her hair looks awful!" or "Who let her out of the house?!" or whatever. I'm with Nancy--it's not something to let run your life.

Some of the incidents being described her sound, and possibly were, quite awful. I'm not sure how I'd handle myself in a situation like that. More than likely I wouldn't want to return to the fests either. But that wouldn't stop me if I wanted to go. There's a good chance that the offenders who were present at one fest, won't be there at the next one. And if they are, the likelihood of actually running into them in a sea of 1000 is slim.

Regarding the KLS yelling event: I'm surprised that fans didn't get involved. It doesn't take but a few people to restrain an individual or calm a person down until the actual security personnel arrives there, rather than letting the situation go on for too long. But, as someone else mentioned previously, people don't want to get involved for fear of escalation or personal attack. I suppose that comes with the job.

Until I witness something utterly horrendous at a fest, things like those which have been described here, you won't catch me decrying the festival or its workers for anything in that category. Now, if you want to talk autograph lines and events, that's another story.

[Midnite]

What a lively discussion!

I agree! 

I just wanted to ask, since the discussion of fan behavior is ongoing, that replies by posters who have already had their say on the subject not be added unless they have something new to add.  Repetitious posts about this same subject will be subject to removal.  Thanks!

[MsCriseyde]

Regarding the KLS yelling event: I'm surprised that fans didn't get involved. It doesn't take but a few people to restrain an individual or calm a person down until the actual security personnel arrives there, rather than letting the situation go on for too long. But, as someone else mentioned previously, people don't want to get involved for fear of escalation or personal attack. I suppose that comes with the job.

The fans did get "involved" in a rather disgusting fashion. The fan in question has a mental disability, and several audience members took it upon themselves to yell at him to get off the stage, to whistle at him, etc. Frankly, I found that behavior from the crowd far more offensive than anything the fan did. When I saw the video of that portion of the proceedings, it literally made me ill. (Commenting on other reactions that offended me would involve violating the board's guidelines about referring to other sites and forums in a negative light, but suffice it to say that this type of behavior didn't end when the event itself ended.)

As to why he was or wasn't banned, there's probably a very simple explanation. None of the actors who interacted with him in the incidents presented here requested it. The response to this fan's behavior reveals far more about the observers' incivility and intolerance than the fan's.

This raises a larger question. Who's to decide what is or isn't appropriate behavior?

[BuzzH]

i dont think the situation with that fan that yelled at kls was handled very well. he was up there screaming at her for a good few minutes before anything was done and he was not kicked out and caused another incident the next day with david selby and he still continues to attend festivals.

If this is the incident I *think* it was, that gentleman was mentally retarded (Down's Syndrome) and although it WAS disruptive, it's hard to kick a retarded guy out.  He probably didn't understand fully what he was doing or saying.  This was the guy who kept calling KLS Maggie Evans right?  And saying she'd betrayed us?  Now, if he was w/someone, an aid for example, who wasn't disabled, which I think MUST'VE been the case 'cause this guy was REALLY disabled, then IMHO it is/was up to that person to discreetly remove him and try to prevent a further incident which apparently happened the next day.