Author Topic: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!  (Read 4107 times)

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Offline ProfStokes

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2002, 04:45:39 AM »
Wow!  Dr. Eric Lang, these diagrams are quite impressive!  I can see how much time and thought you've put into them, and I thank you for sharing.

ProfStokes

Offline Cassandra

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2002, 12:33:47 PM »
Dr.Eric Lang Wrote:
Quote
Thanks to Midnite I can now illustrate the principal of parallel time regarding Victoria Winter's trip to the past. Please refer to diagram 1.


That was some write up Chris![thumb]  Thanks for putting this all together so we can better understand what the heck is going on with these time changes.

At least I don't feel so clueless now and can appreciate the time traveling more easily now. I was beginning to feel as if the writers took us all for compete fools back then.  At least this gives us some kind of closure as to what really happens & why.

"Calamity Jane"

Offline Dr. Eric Lang

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2002, 02:21:23 AM »
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Can you explain to me Angelique's progression through time in this non-linear fashion?  'Cos I've tried, and am again finding the head hurting.


This isn't too tricky if you have the diagrams to refer to.

Angelique from the parallel timeline (points B-H) is strangled by Barnabas; her spirit follows Vicki from point H to point A.  As we saw, she managed to possess Roger Collins, who disappeared for a few days. During this time, she must have had him perform a spell that would restore her to physical life, much in the same way as David and Hallie brought Daphne back to life in 1970. Afterwards she caused Roger and Professor Stokes to believe she was "Cassandra Blair," an undergrad student at his college.

After Nicholas turned her into a vampire, she visited Diabolos in Hades and tattled on Nick. Her "reward" was having the vampire curse lifted from her; her punishment was being sent back to 1796. Still physically alive, she is sent back to point J, the second parallel timeline. We know this to be the case because Barnabas finds her there alive and well, with full memory of her experiences in 1968. He again kills her by having Ben set fire to her at point K.

In 1897 Quentin and Evan conjure Angelique back to life; this is the same Angelique who was torched at point K. We know this to be the case because when she meets Julia in 1897 she knows her from 1968. (The Angelique from the original timeline or the initial parallel timeline, points B-H, would not.)

Since Angelique is not destroyed (for a change) in 1897, we can presume she lives on up until the year 1970 when we find her married to Skyler Rumson. However, this implies an interesting paradox; some time during 1968 there would have been two Angeliques - Mrs. Rumson and an earlier version of Angelique who pretends to be Cassandra Blair. For all intents and purposes, Angelique this time avoids contact with the Collins family, knowing full well what's going on there. Renouncing her powers may also have been a tactical move in order to avoid alerting Nicholas to the fact that she exists in two places at the same time.

When Julia travels back to 1840 we find Angelique alive and well and making an annual pilgrimage to the mausoleum. This is the original Angelique from the original timeline (points B-E) not the parallel timeline Angelique we've been following thus far. We know this because she has no knowledge of the future or who Julia is. It is also interesting to note this would indicate that Barnabas did not kill Angelique in the original timeline as he did in the parallel timeline (and in fact Barnabas never made any mention of such a thing). Perhaps in the original timeline, after Barnabas "died" Angelique accepted the money Joshua offered her and left town rather than trying to stake Barnabas.

She, the original Angelique, is killed by Trask in 1840. What is not explored, however, is the fact that upon returning to 1971 Barnabas and Julia would find the parallel time Angelique (Mrs. Rumson) alive and well.

This could also explain how Barnabas could fall in love with Angelique in 1840. She is not the parallel time Angelique who did all those terrible things we witnessed. It's possible that in the original timeline Angelique was not responsible for Sarah's death or even Josette's, considering Barnabas makes no mention of her involvement in either case in present day.

Offline Bouchard

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2002, 03:15:41 AM »
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Like many of you, I have always been bugged by time paradox storylines--so I won't even bother discussing "Terminator" and "Back to the Future" (two films that defy Time's logic)! But I must address Dark Shadows own forays into Time travel, most specifically 1795 and 1897.

Ok, first 1795. Victoria Winters participates in a seance and finds herself thrust into the not too distant past...1795 Collinsport, Maine, to be exact. Her own time period, 1967, supposedly is "suspended" in Time--or so we're led to believe by the opening narrative to every 1795 episode. Yet, how frozen is it? Certainly there's enough "time" for Roger, Liz, Carolyn, Julia, and Barnabas to react to the sudden presence of Phyllis Wick. Barnabas even says "what are YOU doing here?" as if he somehow recognizes her. So, are we to believe Time froze AFTER all this takes place?

And if Phyllis Wick was the original 1795 governess, originally hung as a witch, and all the events unfolded as they did with Vicky, why would Barnabas (in 1967) have such a nasty reaction to Phyllis' appearance? Throughout his experience with the 1795 Vicky, he's been nothing but kindly and courteous. His reaction to Phyllis, however, is anything but.

And if Victoria returns to 1967 (actually, 1968 ) at the exact moment in Time when she disappeared, Phyllis Wick should also return to 1795 at the exact moment of her disappearance. That means SHE'D stumble to the Old House in a daze from the carriage accident, not Victoria. And none of Victoria's experiences in 1795 would've happened. Right?

Wait, there's more! When Victoria returns to 1967/68, allegedly NO time has passed. She virtually disappeared and appeared in the blink of an eye, right? Well, we know that didn't really happen because Barnabas and the others had time to react to Phyllis (I'm getting confused--as you?). Then, after Victoria returns, there's absolutely NO mention of Sarah Collins again (though she was the whole reason behind the seance), Burke Devlin is NEVER mentioned (though Vicky was completely distraught over his death); Julia's incriminating red diary is conveniently forgotten, and Eagle Hill Cemetery is suddenly miles and miles away from Collinwood! Am I crazy, or have people been walking to it since then?

My theory: when Vicky returned to the "present," it was an alternate present...and not the one she left. How else could any of it be explained?

Now, for 1897! Barnabas goes back to the past to save David...and completely changes the timeline. If that were the case, wouldn't Janet Findley still be living when he returned to 1969? And how about old Ezra? He'd be living, too, correct?

Let's hear your take on all this!

Rod


who cares?! u thouht this out a bit too much...
1795

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Offline yendor

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2002, 03:31:57 AM »
Obviously, you cared enough to post your snide remark!

Offline Midnite

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2002, 07:42:40 AM »
DaysShadows,

If you don't like a particular discussion, you don't have to read it.  So kindly move off the topic and spare the rest of us, who happen to be enjoying it, from having to read your criticism of it.

Offline jennifer

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2002, 03:59:42 PM »
i did enjoy it Dr Lang and when i have a spare
second i'll check it out this weekend! Do i need two aspirin time travel always make my head spin[spin] LOL

jennifer
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Offline Cassandra Blair

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2002, 06:45:20 PM »
First let me just say - wow! Dr. Lang's time theories do seem to work out.  You've obviously put a lot of thought into this, and the charts really helped explain things.

Interesting theory about why Barnabas fell in love with the 1840 Angelique!  

And TWO Angeliques at the same time in present day?  That even makes some kind of sense, given the Angelique/Alexis thing in PT. Love it!

The only thing I'm not sure about is that I don't remember 1897 Angelique knowing Julia when they first meet up in that storyline. Maybe I just don't remember this.  It *has* been a few years since I saw 1897.

Again, very interesting posts, Dr. Lang!!!


-Cassandra B
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Offline Luciaphile

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2002, 04:43:53 AM »
Let me just echo the group and say "wow!"  Time paradoxes make my head spin, but your diagrams did a nice job of explaining everything.

Luciaphil
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Offline dom

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2002, 05:10:39 AM »
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Let me just echo the group and say "wow!"  Time paradoxes make my head spin, but your diagrams did a nice job of explaining everything.


Ditto. I can't even get past the first paragraph without getting cornfused. But I love reading every bit of it. Just think what the writers could have come up with if they'd put half as much thought into what they were actually doing.

I have to add one more thing. Even though I thought that it all went over my head, today as I watched the resurrection of Angelique, I felt I understood it (her reactions to Quentin's answers) so much better because of what I've read in this thread.  It kicks the entertainment value up a notch. I am really enjoying the show so much more now than I did the last go-round.

dom


Offline RingoCollins

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2002, 11:35:47 PM »
WOW!  and OK my head hurts, too!
Just catching up on some of the big old threads!
Have you ever used tinkertoys to act as a diagram?  Ya don't have to worry about the 2-dimentional aspect of the 'flipchart' - all those time-lines can kinda wrap around each other!

Nice work Dr. Lang!

[does anybody even remember tinkertoys? or lincoln logs, or skyscrapers?]
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Offline dom

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2002, 11:59:02 PM »
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[does anybody even remember tinkertoys? or lincoln logs, or skyscrapers?]


Oh yes, though I am loath to admit it. Never heard of skyscrapers but I always wanted an erector set. (Who'd have guessed there were the makings of a fabulous pun brewing way back then.) ;)

dom

Offline Gothick

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2002, 02:25:56 AM »
Hi Cassandra,

Yes, in 1897 Angelique is aware of everything that happened in 1968, even though it was still in the future.  She knew Julia, and she recalled her life as Cassandra, too.

What happened to her is that she was sent backwards in time by Diabolos, to 1796.  After Barnabas put a torch to her during his changing of history in that time, the implication is that she remained in the Dark Realm until she was returned to this world through the incantations of Quentin and Evan.

I haven't read the rest of this topic yet, but this is my understanding of Angelique's current appearance in this story.

Best wishes,

Gothick

Offline Raholt

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2002, 03:00:07 AM »
Gothick's summary of the events that led to Angelique being in 1897 with her memories of 1968 is quite accurate.  This is one point in the storyline where I never had a problem with it.  It made sense.  Angelique had been sent back to stay forever in 1796, but was torched and when she was brought back by Quentin, it was the Angelique that had lived in 1968, been returned to 1796 and destroyed there.  Of Angelique's appearances, this one made more sense than some others which totally disregard previous storylines.

Raholt

Offline Miles

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Re: Time Paradoxes--1795 & 1897!
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2002, 05:28:10 AM »
Just a quick question for doctor lang:

How specifically do you explain Vicki's shifting in time because of the seance?  I mean, I guess I (sortof) buy that Vicki is creating "x" number of alternate universes but why?  Vikci vaporized in the Bajoran wormhole?  Ghost of Sarah Collins?  It mkaes some sense but it just doesn't happen...
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