DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '11 II => Topic started by: Cousin_Barnabas on July 24, 2011, 08:36:38 PM
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Picking up from a comment in another topic:
depending on the time period and storyline "leading lady" status was granted to alexandra moltke, joan bennett, grayson hall or lara parker. at it's best it was never KLS with the possible exception of the three months she played josette as an actual flash-and-blood character during the 1795 period. there it could be argued she was the "lead".true she did receive an elevation in status when moltke left the program and maggie was brought in as collinwood governess, junior sophisticate and resident ingenue-in-distress. but otherwise it was strictly supporting.
Well, I think it's safe to say that when you get your own wardrobe credit, you are a leading lady. [ghost_wink]
I see it this way.
Leading ladies timeline. (I think there are multiple per time period.)
1966 up to the 1795 flashback - Joan Bennett and Alexandra Moltke
1795 - Alexandra Moltke, Lara Parker (and Kathryn Leigh Scott)
1968 up to 1897 flashback - Grayson Hall
1897 - Joan Bennett, Kathryn Leigh Scott, and Lara Parker
Late 1969 to 1970 - Kathryn Leigh Scott, Grayson Hall, and Nancy Barrett
1970PT - Lara Parker
1970 - 1840 - Lara Parker and Kate Jackson
1841 PT - Lara Parker
HoDS - Kathryn Leigh Scott and Grayson Hall
NoDS - Kate Jackson and Lara Parker
As soon as Kitty Hampshire appears on screen, I think it is safe to say that KLS is a confirmed leading lady in the series.
Though Joan Bennett should have always been the lead female, her role was pushed to the wayside more often than not after Barnabas arrived, but she really does shine in 1897, re-asserting her position as the star of the show (along with rising-star Selby, who probably outshined Frid for the remainder of the run).
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i guess there are different ways of looking at things but i don't see KLS as "leading lady" of 1897 at all. she was absent for most of the storyline.
she only played rachel drummond for a few weeks before departing for an extended hiatus. she returned towards the end of the time period as kitty hampshire but again it was only for a few weeks.
the way KLS tends to spin the yarn the josette/barnabas/angelique triangle was the driving force behind most of the show's run but that's simply not true. actually barnabas spent most of his active time on the series pining away for vicki(the better part of two years) and of course later switched his allegiance to roxanne drew.
i will say again that after alexandra's departure she was certainly principle ingenue in residence. the "junior sophisticates" credit was quite a coup as well. [ghost_wink]
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The problem with 1897 is you don't really have a leading role for a young lady. It is so completely different from every other part of the series. I'd say that KLS is the lead female as soon as Kitty Hampshire comes on scene, as short as that stint may have been. That is the precise moment when KLS has grounds for her argument that the love triangle is the essence of Dark Shadows. As for me, I've always felt the essence of Dark Shadows was Barnabas trying to replace Josette, his struggle with her loss, and the extremes he would go to in order to find a candidate worthy of filling the memory of the time he shared with her (even if a lot of it was in his mind). Josette is, imo, one of the most important components of the original series, but the beginning of her importance predates the time when they ever considered having her become flesh and blood or ever considered having KLS play her. Her importance has more to do with the fact that her character is ever-present in nearly every single storyline (in a variety of ways), which, going back to the movie, is why I find it odd that there has been no official mention of her. It's a distinct shake-up in terms of the interpretation of original DS-canon - whether that version be that belonging to KLS or anyone else.
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CB you make very good and legitimate points...
i agree that josette...at least in theory...is one of the most important components of the entire DS mythology. she was an important "presence" long before anyone had ever heard of barnabas collins and maintained that for the rest of the show's run.
but what i've always found striking about josette...and i've said this here many times...is that for her stratospheric prominence and association with the entire scope of the show we actually saw very little of her as a real character. she was only around for a couple of months.
so what i think KLS has done over the years is to manipulate that association to her advantage and retroactively engineer herself into the show's "leading lady". but she really wasn't. it was the idea, the legend, the ghost of josette that was featured on the series so prominently not KLS's portrayal of her.
most of her time she was playing maggie evans...not josette dupres...who was for the most part a supporting character despite a few moments of storyline(and fashion credit)prominence.
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oh and i've been rewatching the leviathan storyline and as flawed as it could be one thing i do enjoy about it is elizabeth stoddard's return to front-burner status after being sidelined for so long.
ice-queen levia-liz is impossibly chic(for some reason she's majestically jeweled and coiffed during this period)and fun to watch. love it!
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I think we agree on the Josette angle. I don't know what KLS has done or tried to do in terms of self-promotion in regards to the role, so I can't speak to that. But, I do agree that it is the idea of Josette that is more influential than her character.
And, yes, I was actually going to list Liz as a leading lady in the Leviathan period, because she has some great moments, but she is still sidelined when you have crime-fighting Maggie, ingenue-Carolyn (Kinda shocking when you think of it), and Angelique. But, Liz does get some juicy moments. Just wish she had been [spoiler]reunited with Paul [/spoiler] when she wasn't under some other influence.
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Yes, as much as I love[spoiler]LeviLiz,[/spoiler]it would have been far more interesting to have seen Liz' reaction to[spoiler]Paul and her interactions with him as her normal self rather than as LeviLiz.[/spoiler]
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I think KLS's parts in the 1897 storyline were pretty minor, she probably never qualified as a 'leading lady,' apart from 1795. Her other parts were primarily kidnap victims and easy prey for more prominent female characters like 1970PT Angelique and 1968's Cassandra.
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In the 1980s fanzines, and into the ones that were produced in the early 90s, the whole Barnabas/Josette thing was HUGE. In retrospect I attribute this to how beautifully Frid and KLS played their romantic scenes together in the 1795 storyline, which was frequently played in the syndication packages available in those days--they didn't get the final year of the episodes, and they started with Barn crawling out of his coffin in 1967, so the complete 1795 relay probably ran a number of times in various markets during the decade. As many here will recall, fan networks ensured that those who did not have access to broadcasts locally got videotapes, typically circulated in slp mode (six hours of episodes per tape--I had some of these that a friend copied for me in the early 1990s).
Since KLS played Josette, if you see Barn/Josette as the central theme around which the entire series turns, KLS becomes THE leading lady of the show. Angelique was "the bitch" which is a different kind of leading lady in the archetypal world of daytime drama.
It's definitely true that "the idea of Josette" was much more a part of the actual episodes than "the reality of Josette." But it really doesn't require much manipulation on the part of KLS to make fans feel that she was one of the most important people on the show.
G.
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for what these stats are worth KLS appeared in 310 episodes.
grayson hall leaves the other ladies in the dust with 474 episodes. nancy barrett stands at 403. joan bennett at 391. alexandra moltke at 335. somehow lara parker ended up with only 269 although she seems like she's in much more. interesting barrett doesn't come up much in the "leading lady" category much despite being the second in appearances.
no other actresses come close to these totals. make of them what you will.
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Joan Bennett was THE star of the show,
as far as the ladies go.
She took long breaks from the show by choice so she could perform in regional theatre.
Victoria was a lead character. Maggie was supporting until Alexandra left, then, Maggie was a lead.
But Maggie was a MAJOR supporting character.
Angelique was a major character role, one that was pivotal to all the period stories.
Angelique was a lead in 1970PT only.
As for KL Scott manipulating her status: I've interviewed her twice and she never refered to herself as a star or lead. She refers to herself as the originator of the Maggie/Josette roles. Which she is.
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Joan Bennett was THE star of the show.
You can end it there and we'd be good. [ghost_wink] [ghost_cheesy]
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That's a really interesting point about Josette being bigger than KLS. Josette is almost a religous figure on the show, with her painting, her room, her music box, etc all taking on iconic roles. Still, KLS was very important in strengthening Josette as a person, and even in her early appearances as a ghost KLS has spooky presence.
I do think that Maggie is a leading character by the time Vicky leaves, and really before that, if she's not a lead character she's the closest anyone else got without being one. I think of her as part of the main cast, but then so is Carolyn imo too.
I do think that post 1795 the idea of Josette is much bigger to Barnabas than the real woman was, as he's pretty out of control with trying to replace her with look alikes and Vicky. Roxanne never made any sense to me as a love intrest for Barnabas, but that's a whole other topic, as is the mad chemistry Barnabas has with Angelique and Julia.
For what it's worth, my bedroom is decorated in DS autographed pics, and I have SIX autographed pictures of KLS including a gorgeous B&W Maggie and Barnabas poster that's the centerpiece of the whole room, so I may be biased :)
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so I may be biased :)
Maybe just a little. [ghost_wink] [ghost_grin]
As for Roxanne, by the time she came around many in the audience had tired of the whole Barnabas/Josette thing and were very vocal about it. So that's why TPTB decided during Leviathans to stage the scene between Barnabas and Josette where she gives back her ring and tells him he has to put her in the past and move on. And hence Roxanne.
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I think it is a fair statement to say that KLS was a leading lady of DS. The character of Josette is iconic afterall and one of the most important characters in the show, even if only mentioned when she wasn't actually on the canvas in a story.
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As for Roxanne, by the time she came around many in the audience had tired of the whole Barnabas/Josette thing and were very vocal about it. So that's why TPTB decided during Leviathans to stage the scene between Barnabas and Josette where she gives back her ring and tells him he has to put her in the past and move on. And hence Roxanne.
But they didn't veer too much from the same concept, did they? Roxanne was still very young, worshiping, naive. She was still a Josette "type."
As for the leading lady question, I think once the Barnabas episodes began, they all had their turn at lead status. Alexandra, Kathryn, Lara, Grayson. It really was dependent on what the storyline was.
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Roxanne was still very young, worshiping, naive. She was still a Josette "type."
Roxanne wasn't always that way. And (apologies for getting further off topic) I think Josette was a stronger personality than pre-vampire Barnabas was, and that if Barnabas and Josette had married, in the end Josette might well have been the alpha spouse - so to speak - in that marriage.
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Well, I always thought the downplaying of Barnabas/josette and Barnabas/Maggie during the last year or so of the show had more to do with Kathryn's decision to leave the show. She spent her last few months working without a contract, so they would have needed to adjust the story accordingly
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No, the complaining from the portion of the audience that had grown tired of Barnabas/Josette actually began during 1897 not too long after the appearance of Lady Kitty - but it definitely hit a peek during early Leviathans. And as we know, DC paid very close attention to what the audience was saying and often adjusted the show accordingly. So, the scene I spoke of earlier was written for Ep #948, which was taped January 23, 1970, long before anyone had any idea that KLS would be leaving the show in September.
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I understand that if KLS had not left the show, she would have played Samantha in 1840. Does this mean that Barnabas would have gone back to 1840, met a Josette clone, and said to himself, “Just a coincidence!”? Or, “What do you mean, Julia? She looks nothing like Josette!”?
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For a change, they might not have addressed it at all seen as Barnabas was into Roxanne. [ghost_wink]
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the who-looks-like-who game was impossible to guess given that a dozen or so actors played virtually all of the show's characters during it's run.
for instance ALL of KLS's characters "looked like" josette to barnabas but none of joan bennett's other characters(liz, judith, flora)looked like his mother naomi. sometimes it mattered when one character resembled another and sometimes it didn't. who knows by what process the writers decided when it did and when it didn't. why was it that ned stuart resembled jeff clark but megan todd didn't resemble jenny or eve?
i think it would have been fun for KLS to play a not-so-nice character who didn't resemble josette for a change.
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i think it would have been fun for KLS to play a not-so-nice character who didn't resemble josette for a change.
Especially if her Samantha was written as bitchy as the character was for Virginia Vestoff. Though that's anyone's guess given how DC firmly believed that the audience would only accept certain actors in certain types of roles and heaven forbid they should be allowed to play something different (like Alexandra Moltke being allowed to play a dark character, which I would have sorely loved to have seen - but alas...). But then, DC almost routinely underestimated the audience.
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my dream of a "dark" alexandra character would not have necessarily been a different character per se but a cruel and sophisticated victoria for 1970 parallel-time.
vain, glamorous and pleasure seeking. draped in gems and outrageous parallel-time couture. her black hair swept up into one of the bizarre do's of the period.
how fun would that have been! [ghost_grin]
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my dream of a "dark" alexandra character would not have necessarily been a different character per se but a cruel and sophisticated victoria for 1970 parallel-time.
Exactly!
vain, glamorous and pleasure seeking. draped in gems and outrageous parallel-time couture. her black hair swept up into one of the bizarre do's of the period.
how fun would that have been! [ghost_grin]
It would have been AMAZING! And it's too bad that the writers and Peter Miner didn't do it while DC was too preoccupied with shooting hoDS like the then writers and Robert Costello had hired Frid while DC was preoccupied with whatever it was he was doing back then (shooting The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?).
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alexandra would have had, what, a one year old at that time?
so while she likely would not have come back onto the series full time she might have signed on for a thirteen week storyline. especially if given the opportunity to play a "dark" version of the character as she still says she would have liked to.
but again, alas.
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that roger davis was gone by that time might have provided further enticement. [ghost_wink]
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this conversation really got me thinking about what the viewers expectations are for who-looks-like-who...
after the second or third storyline they start to get the drift. for the 1795 storyline the writers decided it was important that everyone vicki met in the past looked like someone she knew in the present. after this storyline it became both more random and also more selective as the actors began to take on a repertoire of characters.
as said above viewers began to know instinctively that ALL of KLS's characters resembled josette dupres even before they were specifically told. in a similar vein they know all lara parker and david selby characters are some variation on angelique and quentin respectively. but joan bennett, louis edmonds and nancy barrett can be a new and completely unrelated character each time.
we'll never know how the writers decided when it mattered when one character looked like another and when it didn't but it's interesting what the viewers came to accept.
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for instance ALL of KLS's characters "looked like" josette to barnabas but none of joan bennett's other characters(liz, judith, flora)looked like his mother naomi. idn't resemble josette for a change.
I Believe that when Barnabas saw Liz, at least in the first story line he did think of his mother. There was the hangerchief that Barnabas gave Liz. Then there was the whole Casandra episode.
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Vicki comments on Naomi looking like Liz. I always interpreted it that all characters played by the same actors were supposed to look alike. I think that adds a subtext to Barnabas's relationships especially, given that Liz does really look like his mother. I always felt like Barnabas was very fond of Liz, and that resemblance surely added to his fondness of her.