Author Topic: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"  (Read 23727 times)

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Offline Joeytrom

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2006, 04:28:49 PM »
Angelique and Barnabas seemed to develop a truce midway through 1897, as her character seemd to develop a little.

[spoiler]she even helped Julia cure Barnabas in 1897 at his request.[/spoiler]

By Leviathan, she seems to have made some sort of peace with Barnabas and moved on.

[spoiler]she was in shock and upset that Barnabas was made into a vampire again by Jeb and she did want to kill Jeb for what he had caused her[/spoiler]

Offline Zahir

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2006, 05:02:39 PM »
Like many here, I agree there was sometimes some very sloppy writing in the series.  However, I also believe some folks are complaining about things being "out of character" when in fact they are very much the opposite.

Barnabas Collins was a complex young man in 1795.  All that gentleness and devotion was the surface, but even as a human being he had a awesome temper.  Let us also not forget he had an affair with his fiancee's personal maid!  While he clearly loved, even adored Josette the simple fact was Angelique always got under his skin, always seemed to elicit a powerful emotional--and physical--reaction in him.

When he became a vampire, Barnabas underwent a change.  He often was vicious.  His first act was to taunt Angelique, making sure she was afraid before he strangled her.  Many recent vampire tales--from Bram Stoker's Dracula to Buffy--pretty much make the case that vampires are a case of demonic possession.  Methinks you could make that case with Dark Shadows as well.  Or in Freudian terms, a vampire's Id becomes very very powerful at the expense of their ego.  Barnabas did terrible things as a vampire, many of them at least in theory unnecessary.  Yet he wasn't without a conscience, so he also got the trauma of personal guilt on top of everything else that happened (which all came down, btw, to his having cheated on a woman--or two women, depending on how you look at it).

I interpret Barnabas as having eventually entered into a kind of trance while chained in the coffin, spending very many decades simply reaching out with his semi-conscious mind to summon someone to release him.  Hence the strange "feeling" around the mausoleum.  When he did emerge, quite frankly he was a nutter.  He in every way he could manage refused to live in the 20th century--refusing to have electricity installed in the Old House, trying to turn a waitress into Josette, etc.

These are not rational things to do.

But when he was cured, Barnabas also began to regain his sanity, along with a couple of boatloads of guilt.  His rather hystrionic personality did not help with that--in simple terms, Barnabas is and always was something of a drama queen.  If there was a dramatic gesture to be made, even if it made little sense, he was at the very least tempted to do it!

Mind you, he also became a much darker person every single time (twice, wasn't it?) he became a vampire.  Or (more often) he travelled back in time into his vampiric body--when he was demonstrably more violent and reckless.

Specifically, I think his emotional instability and the inherent violence of his undead nature do much to explain the murder  of Carl.

Vis-a-vis Angelique, I've always felt that Barnabas to some extent--and with some justification--blamed himself for her actions.  More, he always had strong feelings for her, as she did for him (although both tried to pull away at one time or another).  Given that they both changed, both matured, both had a great deal of guilt with which to live and each ended up sacrificing so much--I believed Barnabas could indeed have fallen back in love with Angelique.  While I don't think that makes her the "only woman" he ever loved, I totally and absolutely believe Barnabas would say something like that (see Drama Queen comment above).

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2006, 05:13:59 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Zahir! [hall2_smiley]

What you said makes a lot of sense (though I still can't quite believe Barnabas deciding he LOVED Angelique....forgive her yes, love her, sorry, I just can't buy it).

Though I always believed Barnabas was a bit more guilt-stricken than Angelique. Angelique could use and abuse people and toss them away and not feel a bit guilty about it. It wasn't until we see her in the Leviathans do we see a more mature Angelique who just wants to lead a normal life, powerless and all. (Of course [spoiler]that came to an end when she found out her husband was buddies with Nicholas Blair and a Leviathan).[/spoiler]

Offline Sunny_Collins

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2006, 06:38:44 PM »
Welcome, Zahir!
 [hall_smiley]
Barnabas to little Sarah's ghost: "I forbid you to leave! I beg you to stay!"

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2006, 08:53:59 PM »
A major annoying "What?" was when in 1970 Julia discovers through her search of Quentin's portrait, that Angelique has returned and is now married to Sky. Angelique informs Julia that she doesn't want to be involved in any of the Collins' problems, that she's found a happy life with her husband and doesn't want that ruined. She pleads with Julia to allow her to live a happy life without her past deeds being revealed, and Julia agrees.

Firstly, this annoys me because if Julia is so devoted to Barnabas, and knowing all the terrible things Angelique subjected him to, highest on the list, the death of many of his family members, she would have at least cut Angelique with a few sharp remarks, then demanded why she shouldn't run and tell barnabas of Angelique's return. Instead, she placidly goes along with Angelique's requests, accept for involving her with smuggling Quentin's painting in order to uncover it from the landscape.

Barnabas does eventually learn of Angelique's existence and marriage, and he goes to her home to ask for her help.

Barnabas should realize by now that Angelique isn't to be trusted, why would he want her help with anything? It seems like he'd want to stay as far away from her as possible. Angelique tells him she doesn't want to help him in any way, that her life with Sky is very important and she doesn't want it ruined by any Collins' antics.

Barnabas, in an understanding tone says he understands her feelings completely and doesn't want to destroy her happiness with her husband.
But why was Barnabas so understanding of her, willing to keep her past deeds quiet, willing to allow her happiness when she so blatantly obliterated his life in 1795? Shouldn't he have reminded her of her selfish motives in the past, using his own knowledge to his advantage to get her to do what he wanted? He was just so docile about the entire thing, as though nothing harsh had ever been between them!

You make valid points, but as has been mentioned, Angelique had helped Barnabas and Julia in 1897 with [spoiler]Barnabas' cure[/spoiler]and [spoiler]Ang had continued the treatments after Julia had returned to the present.[/spoiler]Julia and Ang had shared what could be considered some friendly scenes in 1897 and, despite her complaints, Ang had ultimately helped Barn out with several predicaments. Julia was no doubt still grateful for the help. And when it comes to Barn, his relationship with Ang was nothing if not classic love/hate - one minute they're despising each other, the next they're coconspirators/allies (which is but one of the reasons why I don't think the way things evolve and work out between Ang and Barn in 1840/41 is quite so out of left field as some other fans do).

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Yet another moment: After returning from 1995, Barnabas and Julia inform Quentin of his possible future fate, explaining of his madness in the face of family tragedy, and that he will become very attached to the ghost of a woman named Daphne. Fully aware of what is to come, Daphne appears to Quentin, and instead of sending her away, or at the very least protesting her presence with him, he welcomes her, simply because she's a beautiful woman. If knowledge is power, then he didn't use what he knew to avoid a fate he knew was to come. He continues to be involved with Daphne, all the while knowing the dangers, but obviously he doesn't care about his sanity or the children if he is willing to set this all aside for the sake of beauty.

Well, one thing that Quentin and Barnabas definitely share in common is that that they rarely think with the head on their shoulders.  [hall2_wink]  [hall2_rolleyes]  Is that stupid behavior that can all too often get a man in trouble? Yes. But not to be sexist, maybe it takes another male to fully understand though not necessarily forgive and/or condone exactly how that works because at one time or another we've all been there, done that.  [hall2_undecided]  [hall2_embarrassed]

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2006, 09:32:11 PM »
However, I also believe some folks are complaining about things being "out of character" when in fact they are very much the opposite.

I couldn't agree more.

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Barnabas is and always was something of a drama queen.  If there was a dramatic gesture to be made, even if it made little sense, he was at the very least tempted to do it!

Does that perception ever hit the nail on the head! It sums Barnabas up to a T.  [thumb]  And frequently Barn couldn't be talked out of making the gesture. Barn was often his own worst enemy.

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Vis-a-vis Angelique, I've always felt that Barnabas to some extent--and with some justification--blamed himself for her actions.  More, he always had strong feelings for her, as she did for him (although both tried to pull away at one time or another).  Given that they both changed, both matured, both had a great deal of guilt with which to live and each ended up sacrificing so much--I believed Barnabas could indeed have fallen back in love with Angelique.  While I don't think that makes her the "only woman" he ever loved, I totally and absolutely believe Barnabas would say something like that (see Drama Queen comment above).

Exactly!


And BTW, welcome to the forum.  [hall2_smiley]

Offline stefan

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2006, 02:22:47 AM »
Vis-a-vis Angelique, I've always felt that Barnabas to some extent--and with some justification--blamed himself for her actions.  More, he always had strong feelings for her, as she did for him (although both tried to pull away at one time or another).  Given that they both changed, both matured, both had a great deal of guilt with which to live and each ended up sacrificing so much--I believed Barnabas could indeed have fallen back in love with Angelique.  While I don't think that makes her the "only woman" he ever loved, I totally and absolutely believe Barnabas would say something like that (see Drama Queen comment above).

um .. not sure why I'm cutting in here but. OK, here's my take on this statement and BTW excellent post and insightful. I agree that there was sexual and emotional chemistry between Angelique and Barnabas and that he did blame himself for her actions. What a disaster it all turned out to be but how could this 23 year old spoiled elegant highly emotional brat (Barnabas) have guessed that Angelique was a witch; capable of outright cold-blooded murder of a child. The point is that he could not have. Barnabas was guilty of indescreet and insensitive conduct towards both Angelique and Josette. I think we all know the drill blah blah .. Barnabas and Josette were not engaged or even romantically involved at the time Barnabas had his fling with her maid, but he was interested in Josette, probably in love with her, so it was a deed of incredible stupidity and lust. One could argue that it was their strong chemistry and I agree that had lots to do with it, but, let us not also forget who we're talking about here - a woman who coldly, without much conscience, nearly wiped out an entire family and as responsible for the murders Barnabas subsequently committed as a vampire as he was, perhaps more. I'd be curious as to how it all happened between them in Martinique as Angelique does have a pattern of manipulative behavior, who boldly stated to Ben S. that she frequently went after Josette's suitors. But, this doesn't excuse Barnie's behavior and, again, guessing by the storyline, he did not suspect what Angelique was and how she operated.

One could also argue that Barnabas truly loved Angelique but wouldn't have taken her seriously as a wife because she was of the "lower orders" as opposed to the refined and wealthy Josette. In those days people married within their social structure. This could be true but there is more to it than just the distribution of weath. It was also a connection by upbringing, class, interests and manners. This kind of marrying within class structure still occurs today. I don't find it strange at all Barnabas would feel a "connnection" to Josette in that sense and initially not feel as connected to Angelique. However, I feel Barnabas would have preferred Josette had she been poorer than she was. Despite her youth and delicacy, she was essentially a gentle, courageous and loyal person who, confused and baffled by the events that happened and the spells put upon her, stayed loyal to Barnabas even after death and when she suspected and when events pointed to a gruesome death.

In response to the both of them maturing. I agree that, according the the show's events, both characters did mature as monsters can mature, I guess. I still find it incredible that Barnabas could ever forgive someone responsible for the agony he had endured for centuries, the murders he committed in the name of feminine vanity. How could his actions to Angelique EVER confine him to those horrors. If he did forgive her it's a sick joke, an appalling case of stockholm syndrome that apparently much of the audience experienced as well, jugding by the tolerant and even excited responses Angelique inspires.

Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2006, 10:26:38 AM »
Depicting Barnabas as a 'drama queen' seems excessive and harsh.    I'm not sure there is such a thing anyway.   And Barnabas was notable for his egalitarianism, treating Ben well, and teaching him to read.   A bit of arrogance might still be there because of his class, but a lot of that comes when you become a vampire and have to live by using people, I think.
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Offline BuzzH

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2006, 03:12:50 PM »
Depicting Barnabas as a 'drama queen' seems excessive and harsh.    I'm not sure there is such a thing anyway.   And Barnabas was notable for his egalitarianism, treating Ben well, and teaching him to read.   A bit of arrogance might still be there because of his class, but a lot of that comes when you become a vampire and have to live by using people, I think.

ITA Magnus.  Barnabas wasn't your typical 'idle rich' boy.  Ben even says to him at one point in 1795 [spoiler]when Angelique sends the skull to Josette and Ben says it may have come from someone in town who is jealous of Joshua's success, then adds, "They don't know you're different Mr. Barnabas."[/spoiler] suggesting that Ben can't believe that if ppl knew how nice Barnabas was they wouldn't have sent what they sent to CW.
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2006, 04:31:14 PM »
even as a human being he had a awesome temper. 
I'm not so sure about this.  The only evidence I can remember is

[spoiler]Barnabas challenging Jeremiah to a duel[/spoiler]

(I'm not sure if a spoiler warning is needed on something so well-known, but better safe than sorry.)
On that he had had intense provocation, and his response was one with which everybody in that time would have been familiar.  And he'd had days and days to worry about the whole business and let it build up inside him before being presented with the actual, shocking fact.

trying to turn a waitress into Josette

Gosh, I'm slow.  Years and years, and finally a chance remark causes light to dawn on Marblehead - i.e. I made the connection to one of my favorite poems, Non Sum Qualis Eram Bonae Sub Regno Cynarae by Ernest Dowson.  Non sum etc. translates to "I am not what I was under the reign of the good Cynara".  The poet talks about drinking and womanizing all over the place to try to forget Cynara, but none of it was any good - each verse ends with "I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion."  I read that the Dowson's inspiration for Cynara was a waitress at a cheap diner.  Maggie in her early days.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2006, 07:46:42 PM »
Depicting Barnabas as a 'drama queen' seems excessive and harsh.

If one goes back and reads Zahir's post, one will note that he says Barnabas was "something of a drama queen," meaning he wasn't necessary a full fledged example but someone who exhibited drama queenish tendancies - and Zahir equated that behavior with Barn's need to make dramatic gestures. It's hard to imagine that almost anyone could argue against that because, let's face it, whenever any real and/or imagined crisis cropped up, Barn was the first to react, if not actually overreact (can one say killing Carl rather than choosing some other alternative? - initially wanting to kill David without even being sure that David even really knew anything? - wanting to kill Maggie rather than trust that Dr. Hoffman had submerged her memories? - the list goes on and on...) and very often people like Ben, Willie and Julia had to pull every argument out of the book to try to calm Barn down and make him see reason. And also, let's face it, more often than not, they failed. However...

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And Barnabas was notable for his egalitarianism, treating Ben well, and teaching him to read.

...a belief in human equality and a desire to remove inequality from society would in no way preclude someone from also having drama queenish tendencies which might often blind one to the bigger picture and the repercussions of acting rashly.  [hall2_smiley]

Offline Zahir

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2006, 08:30:54 PM »
Thank you, Mysterious Benefactor.

My whole point is that genuine human characters are not always logical, nor do they only show one set of tendencies.  Barnabas was capable of vicious rage, although he also often (even usually) a kind and patient man who preferred to see the best in others.  He was a romantic, even gallant figure--who had an affair with is his fiancee's maid, then treated her very badly afterwards (at least, had a former lover of mine treated me like that I'd've been extremely hurt and upset).  He could be cool, smart and calculating--yet he also displayed recklessness time after time.  Repressed and formal, he was given to flights of melodrama.

Frankly, that kind of complexity is a lot of what made him seem real.  That and Jonathan Frid's decision to play him (to quote the actor) "like Hamlet."

Offline Barnabas'sBride

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2006, 08:48:27 PM »
Barn was the first to react, if not actually overreact (can one say killing Carl rather than choosing some other alternative? - initially wanting to kill David without even being sure that David even really knew anything? - wanting to kill Maggie rather than trust that Dr. Hoffman had submerged her memories? - the list goes on and on...) 

Those fall under 'paranoia' more so than being 'overdramatic' or a 'drama queen' to me.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2006, 08:57:05 PM »
Well, a whole set of different feelings can often spark over-reactive/over-dramatic behavior, paranoia certainly being one of them.  [hall2_wink]

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Re: Moments that made you go "WHAT?!!!!"
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2006, 10:23:19 PM »
Well ever since Angelique cursed him, Barnabas all throughout the show struggled between good and evil. I always believed he wanted to be a better person especially once he [spoiler]became human again.[/spoiler]At times he really could be a warm, compassionate human being, other times he could be so cold and murderous.

From the moment he first became a vampire, Barnabas was a very screwed-up person. I can't help but pity the guy even when I don't agree with some of the things he does.