ShadowGram Update #170

[Nancy]

When DS went on SciFi, it still had the then recent coming off New Jersey Network and that popularity.  The fests were 1500-2000 strong attendance wise.  The big celebration - 40th anniversary - was around 2,000 - that for a major anniversary and in New York.  That's not much when we have had draws of over 4,000.  The previous anniversary marks attendance wise had higher attendance than the 40th anniversary.  DS has not been syndicated now for quite a long time.  If the festivals stop it could just be for a period of time until things get rolling again.  I think what Jim is trying to do is keep the gatherings going on in any way now. 

Nancy

Before the show was on Sci Fi, 2000 people attending the Fest was the norm, or more like above the norm.  If that wasn't considered a poor attendance then, why is it now?

[Nancy]

[I'm one of those middle-aged people rooming with 3 others at the Fest to make ends meet.

But you aren't on the floor!

The Fest price has been $30/weekend for as long as I have been attending (1990) and sometimes has been a 2-for-1 deal.  Raising the rate in the time since 1990 by only a few dollars even would seem reasonable.  I know a lot of people don't have a very big income (and I'm one of them), but I don't think charging just a few dollars more for admission would make that big of a difference.  The banquet price has gone up and people are still coming.  The hotel rate has gone waaaaay up and people are still coming. 

I don't consider the rising cost of either to have been very much over the  years.

Paying a little more to attend the Fest would be better than having no Fest at all, IMHO.  Also, the Fest is the only con that I know of with this cheap of an admission price and I'm sure there are a lot of middle-aged people who attend other cons and cram 3-4 or more people in a hotel room there too.  It's only 1 weekend a year and I thought that was part of the fun and made us feel younger.

True but I was not really talking about people sharing a room as much as those who have to sleep on the floor.  I consider that rather extreme for the middle-aged back and sensibilities.   I also have four people in my room (I won't have more than that) and primarily that is done because we know each other and it's fun to yak, like you said have fun.  I could pay for my own room if I wanted and so could one or two of the other people I share my room with.  I must confess though 4 women and one bathroom can get ugly at times.

Nancy

[Brandon Collins]

I know whatcha mean about those gas prices, Janet! They're making me think long and hard about it too. Hopefully, though, they'll stall out and won't go up a whole bunch. As long as it's cheaper than taking the train, I don't care.

I would fly, but mum doesn't do air. lol

[BuzzH]

you still have many cases where middle-aged people are still sleeping on the floor in  a room with friends.  Too many of the fans who do attend reguarly do not have the kind of income that allows them to just share a hotel room with just one other person.  A lot of fans work in retail, non-profit and other moderate income industries so raising the admission stands to make the fest even more difficult for them to attend.  They need to room with three to four other people as it is to afford to come at all.  As I said, many still sleep on the floor. 

This is a 'blanket statement' if I ever saw one!  Don't speak for me or my friends please.  I'll wager that the majority of fans room w/friends because they want to be together, not because they can't afford their own room.  My first Fest was 1990 NY and I went alone and roomed alone (I was new to fandom and didn't know anyone yet) and had NO problem footing the bill for the room, room service and dropping a TON of cash in the dealors room!  I even did the bus trip and the banquet too, and at that time in my life I was working a mimimum wage job.  It's called a savings account dear.  Granted, maybe there are some fans who must room together for money's sake, but based on the fans I've seen eating in the hotel restaurants, drinking in their bars, not to mention the wads of money flying around the dealors room--and the AUCTIONS--I'd say your ascertion that ppl are too poor to room alone is a bit misinformed.

Just my two cents...

[Teresa]

I usually room alone or with my friend Renee if her kids aren't going. Two in a room is pretty much my limit and my back would not do well on a floor but some people feel the more the merrier and it makes a party athmosphere for them. That's fne too. I have met several people over the years who said sharing with several people was their only option for affording the fest. Some are so cautious with money they barely eat while they are there. What is all boils down to is if you come home and had fun then that's all that matters. I go to see friends and to see some of the planned events. I've never been to one where everything went as planned and I've had disappointments but by the time I got home I was happy I went. At this point in my life a New York event is my only option. LA for me would require more than 3-4 days and with most of my money going into home repairs, trips are few and far between. Many of us have financial issues I'm sure but if someone wants to spend tjheir only vacation going to the fest because that's what they love then more power to them. My only concern would be the let down once they come to an end. That's where the friendships come into play. Dark Shadows in it's festival,event/weekend form may come to an end but with phone calls, emails and visit the friendships can always remain strong.
It looks to be an awesome weekend. Sometimes we can't have our cake and eat it too (although what good is cake if you cannot eat it right?) so I just say let's enjoy this special weekend and it's guest and each others company for a short but fun filled time. It's a good thing!

[Julianka7]

This is a 'blanket statement' if I ever saw one!  Don't speak for me or my friends please.  I'll wager that the majority of fans room w/friends because they want to be together, not because they can't afford their own room.  My first Fest was 1990 NY and I went alone and roomed alone (I was new to fandom and didn't know anyone yet) and had NO problem footing the bill for the room, room service and dropping a TON of cash in the dealors room!  I even did the bus trip and the banquet too, and at that time in my life I was working a mimimum wage job.  It's called a savings account dear.  Granted, maybe there are some fans who must room together for money's sake, but based on the fans I've seen eating in the hotel restaurants, drinking in their bars, not to mention the wads of money flying around the dealors room--and the AUCTIONS--I'd say your ascertion that ppl are too poor to room alone is a bit misinformed.

Just my two cents...

I am glad you spoke up Buzz.  I haven't been to a fest, but I have friends who
do go every year and do room together. Not because they can't afford to take
a room alone either. But because they enjoy being together. It's like a party
all weekend. And they spend a pile in the dealer's room, go to the banquet,
eat, drink and etc. They also do my shopping while there. And I spent over
$140 on goodies from the dealers room just last year. So while I agree that
most Dark Shadows fans are in their mid 40's to early 60's we are not all
on fixed incomes or retired yet.

[Phil]

I will be holding a meeting of Folks Under 40 with Adorable Wives and Wads of Disposable Cash in the hotel bar. Despite our long formal title, everyone is welcome...

[Nancy]

you still have many cases where middle-aged people are still sleeping on the floor in  a room with friends.  Too many of the fans who do attend reguarly do not have the kind of income that allows them to just share a hotel room with just one other person.  A lot of fans work in retail, non-profit and other moderate income industries so raising the admission stands to make the fest even more difficult for them to attend.  They need to room with three to four other people as it is to afford to come at all.  As I said, many still sleep on the floor.

This is a 'blanket statement' if I ever saw one!  Don't speak for me or my friends please.  I'll wager that the majority of fans room w/friends because they want to be together, not because they can't afford their own room.  My first Fest was 1990 NY and I went alone and roomed alone (I was new to fandom and didn't know anyone yet) and had NO problem footing the bill for the room, room service and dropping a TON of cash in the dealors room!  I even did the bus trip and the banquet too, and at that time in my life I was working a mimimum wage job.  It's called a savings account dear.  Granted, maybe there are some fans who must room together for money's sake, but based on the fans I've seen eating in the hotel restaurants, drinking in their bars, not to mention the wads of money flying around the dealors room--and the AUCTIONS--I'd say your ascertion that ppl are too poor to room alone is a bit misinformed.

Just my two cents...

It would have been a blanket statement if I had said ALL but I didn't.  I said "many" and yes that is a reality many can't afford to fly across the country.  It's a reality borne out in mail going to festival organizers over the past twenty years including mail JF has gotten over the past twenty years from fans who explain they are not able to afford coming to a festival so my opinion is hardly "misinformed."  Also, it's not a negative thing to say some events arent' affordable for many people especially when more modern statistics indicate many Americans live from one paycheck to another.  We've all been there, some longer than others.

You must have missed my post about my rooming with three others for the purpose of having fun and having fun, not necessity.    It's called a savings account, dear.

[Nancy]

Which is exactly what I said in my post above about sharing a room with others for fun, not necessity.

Nancy

I am glad you spoke up Buzz.  I haven't been to a fest, but I have friends who
do go every year and do room together. Not because they can't afford to take
a room alone either. But because they enjoy being together. It's like a party
all weekend. And they spend a pile in the dealer's room, go to the banquet,
eat, drink and etc. They also do my shopping while there. And I spent over
$140 on goodies from the dealers room just last year. So while I agree that
most Dark Shadows fans are in their mid 40's to early 60's we are not all
on fixed incomes or retired yet.

[jennifer]

Well, for crying out loud, why don't they use the I-Ching wands?  They should practice first so they don't end up in Kansas City.

[Nancy]

I wanted to make sure my point was understand as already I see some misunderstanding of what I said regarding festival funds.   I know Jim Pierson has operated for over a decade with the understanding that most of those fans who would like to attend a convention do not have a lot of extra cash.  He has told me for this reason he finds hotel rates that are as reasonable as possible and the admission price rarely ever goes up.  It would be a misrepresentation of what I was saying for anyone to take offense that I opined that for many of us with kids, mortgages and now college tuitition, there isn't a lot of disposable income.  It's normal for these things to be issues for middle-aged adults.  Those of us who are single will likely be able to do more wild and crazy things.   The festival pricing and hotel rates have operated on the premise those coming do not have much extra for as long as I can remember.  I wanted to know why the fest could not continue to be held at the marriott Marquis in midtown and Jim (and Helen) told me it was because fest people tend not to use those salon services and other premium services hotels thrive on and the reason they can give big discounts to blocks of rooms.  The hotel would not give as good a discount in the future for these reasons and Jim had to look elsewhere. Believe me, everyone was disappointed with that!

I have to plan my vacation around the fest when it is on the east coast as I like to meet up with friends before and after the event and do stuff in the city.  It's still fun to have a bit of a slumber party in my room with three other people. I would not have it any other way. That's part of the fun.

Sometimes when I write (and write in a hurry) what comes across can sound condescending and snotty when that's not my intention.  My overall concern is that people view the fests in a more realistic way and the fact there isn't the money there used to be with DS off the air for so many years and new fans not coming in as much.  That doesn't mean that all can't change. 

[Mary]

I wanted to make sure my point was understand as already I see some misunderstanding of what I said regarding festival funds.   I know Jim Pierson has operated for over a decade with the understanding that most of those fans who would like to attend a convention do not have a lot of extra cash.  He has told me for this reason he finds hotel rates that are as reasonable as possible and the admission price rarely ever goes up.  It would be a misrepresentation of what I was saying for anyone to take offense that I opined that for many of us with kids, mortgages and now college tuitition, there isn't a lot of disposable income.  It's normal for these things to be issues for middle-aged adults.  Those of us who are single will likely be able to do more wild and crazy things.   The festival pricing and hotel rates have operated on the premise those coming do not have much extra for as long as I can remember.  I wanted to know why the fest could not continue to be held at the marriott Marquis in midtown and Jim (and Helen) told me it was because fest people tend not to use those salon services and other premium services hotels thrive on and the reason they can give big discounts to blocks of rooms.  The hotel would not give as good a discount in the future for these reasons and Jim had to look elsewhere. Believe me, everyone was disappointed with that!

Thank you for clarifying that, Nancy.  I understand that Jim is doing the best he can to find good hotel rates, and he can only get the hotels go so low on their price.  However, for example, last year the rate was $159/night -- yikes!  I'm sure that was the best rate available, but I don't think increasing the price of Fest admisson by a few dollars or so would even be an issue compared to how much the hotel costs, even when split 4 ways!  Maybe I'm wrong, but if people can afford the hotel price in the first place, I don't see how increasing the Fest admission a little bit, in order to pay for and enable the Fests to continue, could prevent them from coming.

Sometimes when I write (and write in a hurry) what comes across can sound condescending and snotty when that's not my intention.  My overall concern is that people view the fests in a more realistic way and the fact there isn't the money there used to be with DS off the air for so many years and new fans not coming in as much.  That doesn't mean that all can't change.

Are you saying that Pierson/DCP used to have more money to put on a Fest back in the '90s than they do now?  If that is the case, then instead of just not having a Fest, could they do something like have a special fundraiser or take up a collection at this year's event, or have a special auction or a 50/50 drawing or some other idea -- I'm sure most other people are more creative than I am -- to make up the difference or raise money for the next Fest?

[Mysterious Benefactor]

One supposes that financial reasoning could be why the Fest might say it's unable to pay West Coast actors' transportation. But one has a much harder time believing it was why, as I'd originally said, according to multiple and very reputable sources, some stars who inquired as to whether there was going to be an event this year were told that there wasn't - and this was despite the fact that, at the time of the stars' inquiries, negotiations for the Frid event had been in progress for months and were nearing completion, AND if the Frid event fell through, there was a backup plan to have an event in Brooklyn again. It wasn't until those same stars got wind that something was actually in the works (and after it was looking pretty good that this year was going to be the Frid event because it was gelling) that it was finally admitted that an event was indeed taking place - though they were then told that this year is simply a "fan event," not a Fest, and then politely told their services would not be needed. Regardless of whether or not an event was going to be Fridcentric or not, some sort of event was being planned, and the inquiring actors should have been told that from the outset - and if it was financial constraints that were going to prevent their participation, the inquiring West Coast actors should have been told that from the outset and that their services weren't going to be required no matter what shape the East Coast event took.

Though, as I also said, certain people may choose to deny all this - but one seriously doubts they would ever attempt to deny it in the presence of the actors who were given that story...


The idea that the Fests are losing money is an intriguing one. One thing that comes to mind, though, is that it's not at all like they were conceived as a moneymaking enterprise. The Festival entity is a not for profit organization that has donated its proceeds to charity throughout the years. Is it the case they are no longer able to continue making charitable donations?


Also, the New Jersey Network years took place in the mid-'80s, and even when the original DS was getting exposure on that channel, it wasn't like it was reaching a huge part of the country. It wasn't even cleared on a fraction of the cable systems that, say, a station like TBS was. Whether the original DS was on NJN or simply on a local station, its availablity for fans to watch it on TV was always very spotty at best until the Sci-Fi Channel gained fairly decent clearance. And that didn't happen for quite some time until after its debut in September '92. During Sci-Fi's entire first DS run (September '92 - March '95) the channel had extremely low clearance - and even for a bit of time beyond that first run. The fact is there have been huge stretches of time when the original DS was not available on TV (or even VHS) to most of its fans, yet the Fest presented large yearly events during that time - even going so far as to present large dual-coast events in the same year. Attendance was generally well under 2000- sometimes even only in the hundreds. So, it would seem that the unavailability of DS on TV and lower turnouts haven't generally been issues in the past...

[jimbo]

None of us really know about the business model or finances of DCP.   The fact that fest attendance has dropped off (since the show left the air on SciFi) and the 40th Anniversary saw something llike only 2000 it doesn't make sense to finance something that appeals to a limited audience and stands to lose money.  My hope is that the show finds another home on cable.  Back when the series was on SciFi, festival attendance was as high as 4-6,000 people over the course of a weekend.

Nancy I have to disagree with your position defending DCP in that " it does not make sense to finance something that appeals to a limited audience and stands to lose money".  I just think that is very unfortunate that you support DCP's turning its back on the Festival and its fans. (I did not even include the income earned from DCP's entire cataloge of movies). I just wish that DCP took some initiative in financially supporting the Fest. It certainly has the means to do so and it should want to support the continuation of the Fests. DCP can donate money to the Festival if it wanted to do as the Festival is allegedly a not for profit entity-as MB recently pointed out and DCP could use its donation as a tax write- off.  Does DCP have any interest in watching the Festival come to an end? I feel that DCP should be morally obligated to see the Fest thrive as an reward to us fans supporting the franchise throught the years. DCP should not just settle for getting DS back on cable. MGM is releasing straight to DVD new remakes of movies like Stigmata announced today and Audrey Rose. Is a straight to DVD new Dark Shadows movie a possibility that DCP is exploring? I had believed that the new leadership at DCP stood a better chance of getting a new DS project off the ground in any format. The 2004 WB's pilot was a fluke and not based on any DCP creative initiative.

[Midnite]

The Fest price has been $30/weekend for as long as I have been attending (1990) and sometimes has been a 2-for-1 deal.  Raising the rate in the time since 1990 by only a few dollars even would seem reasonable.  I know a lot of people don't have a very big income (and I'm one of them), but I don't think charging just a few dollars more for admission would make that big of a difference.

But isn't raising the full admission charge by a few dollars exactly what has happened?  But with a twist...

According to ShadowGram Update #153 (here's a link)--

--last year's Fri-Sat-Sun rate was $25 ($15 for Friday, Saturday or Sunday only).  This year's 2-day rate is $30 ($15 for Friday only; $20 for Saturday only).  That's a $5 increase in the "weekend rate" since last year, but if you break it down in terms of what you're actually getting for your money, fans who paid for 3 days in 2006 and plan to fork out $30 for this summer's 2-day event ($8.33 per day vs. $15 per day) are being charged 45% more, though if you count Friday as a half day, $25 for 2.5 days vs. $30 for 1.5 days (which breaks down to $10/day vs. $20/day) is a 50% increase.

Switching reels, and speaking for the moment as a fan and not a moderator, the discussion of how middle-aged fans (we won't even get into my sudden realization that the term refers to my own age group  ) may or may not make ends meet in order to attend reminds me of a discussion elsewhere from years ago that poked fun at how some DS fans dress (and beyond that) for these events-- it smacks of judgment and, in other words, makes me very uncomfortable.  I've said my share of negative things about the Fest organizer, and I can't know what's in his heart, but that he embraces the economic and social diversity of DS fans when making Festival plans, I think, speaks well for him.