Author Topic: ShadowGram Update #164  (Read 14392 times)

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Offline arashi

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2007, 09:36:59 PM »
The really sad thing is this type of behavior isn't limited to just the DS Fests and the few bad apples in it's fandom. I've been to Star Trek and Anime Conventions and witnessed the same deplorable social behaviors in practice. You really have to wonder if people are being rude because they don't care, or that they just don't know any better.

Offline Nancy

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2007, 09:40:27 PM »
I've tended to view it as an example of what happens when some people spend way too much time watching TV and not enough time interacting with real people.  A lack of social skills is often the result.

Nancy

The really sad thing is this type of behavior isn't limited to just the DS Fests and the few bad apples in it's fandom. I've been to Star Trek and Anime Conventions and witnessed the same deplorable social behaviors in practice. You really have to wonder if people are being rude because they don't care, or that they just don't know any better.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2007, 10:12:38 PM »
I've tended to view it as an example of what happens when some people spend way too much time watching TV and not enough time interacting with real people.  A lack of social skills is often the result.

That may be true, but there are also so-called "socialized" people (meaning they spend a good portion of their lives interacting in the outside world) who seem to be loud, rude, outspoken, pushy and obnoxious as a matter of course. They simply care about themselves and what they want at any given time - and they don't really care how they go about accomplishing it or what others think about their behavior.  :-

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2007, 10:44:31 PM »
I see bad behavior on public transit & in movie theatres all the time.
Disruptive people are asked to leave & everyone moves on.

But at cons, rude, abusive, disruptive and even vindictive people are cheered on!
And that's what sets cons apart from the real world.
It's the people at the top who set the stage for what goes on at any event.

I no longer attend cons of any kind because of this.

Were it not for the loving atmosphere Midnite, MB,
& Dom created here, where disrespect toward others is not allowed, I'd
literally have nowhere to go to discuss DS.

David 

Offline MsCriseyde

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2007, 04:49:27 AM »
They simply care about themselves and what they want at any given time - and they don't really care how they go about accomplishing it or what others think about their behavior.
Yes, I don't think the problem is limited to fandom, though getting into a discussion of bad behavior in general is drifting off topic.  ;)


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Offline D_Friedlander

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #65 on: February 02, 2007, 04:14:15 AM »
I've seen some unpleasant behavior at DSFs in many of the years since David stopped attending, and not just from fans, either... However, I've searched my memory banks,  and cannot recall an instance of such behavior literally being CHEERED, except perhaps by close associates of the offenders.  I certainly never have, and neither----in my observation---  has anyone of my acquaintance ---which includes some people on this forum, so with all due respect, please don't taint everyone with this gulit.  Of course I've seldom spent 24 hours in any one place at the conventions, but when I'm there I pay attention.

 I think what sets in with bystanders is paralysis of will--- we're all waiting for someone in charge to attend to the situation, anxious about interfering if the situation is actually not as bad as we percieve, or anxious not to provoke the offender in case the activity escalates to a threat level.  So what generally ensues is stunned silence, nervous titters, eye-rolling, some complaints and walk-outs, but lacking the authority to do really anything about the problem, not even having an idea of what to do about it.

IMO, some of the trouble stems from the nature of the DS events. because of the concentration basically on one show, and the lack of barriers between a relatively small amount of fans (many of whom evolved into repeat attendees) and a shrinking pool of surviving actors (ditto.)  There is a sense of intimacy and familiarity between the fans and even the actors, who all seem to feel like part of a (slightly dysfunctional) family reunion where one feels safe to say what they will, or act out, and be accepted.

Up to a point, that's part of the joy of the Fest experience.  However there are good, useful, or at least harmless ways to express this pleasure, and bad, obnoxious, and potentially harmful actions.  Some people  take the extremes of being rude and pushy for its own sake, or out of impatience and/or exhaustion, and some are just intrusive out of simple curiosity and/or poorly-expressed concern for what they perceive as a problem.   We who have been attending for years may never have been disruptive, and/or learned to roll with all the tribulations after a period of adjustment (I actually used to CRY the day after coming home the first 2 years, it was all so overwhelming, and at my age, thought I was beyond that sort of thing.)

The question is how to encourage others to take the high road,, and to enforce against the negative--- the old tricky, sticky, paradox of protecting both freedom of expression and freedom from harm.

If there had been, all along, some facet of a real committee to handle real complaints attendees have, it might have nipped some of the problem in the bud long ago.  Such as it is, if there should continue to be DS conventions, we're left up to our own devices and try to enjoy what there is to enjoy, befriend those who appear to share the same values, try to help or at least listen to attendees who have an honest beef, take breaks from the convention area when it's boring or annoying or just for a change of scenery, etc.

Because it would have been sad to have been deprived of the opportunity to meet some very fine fellow fans--- great human beings I wouldn't have had the opportunity to under any other circumstances, to have fulfilled some dreams of meeting idols of my adolescence, to have seen some places I never would have gone alone.... Gotta take some of the bad with the good, that's life.
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Offline adamsgirl

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2007, 03:19:16 PM »
Very well said, D.

At the last festival, a friend and I encountered a problem with a fan badgering Betsy Durkin. Ms. Durkin, being as sweet and gracious as she is, was trying desperately to deal with the woman and not be rude at the same time. Rather than intervene, we went to a senior volunteer who handled the situation. It all worked out well.


Offline Teresa

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2007, 05:58:59 PM »
I see bad behavior on public transit & in movie theatres all the time.
Disruptive people are asked to leave & everyone moves on.

But at cons, rude, abusive, disruptive and even vindictive people are cheered on!
And that's what sets cons apart from the real world.
It's the people at the top who set the stage for what goes on at any event.

I no longer attend cons of any kind because of this.

I have seen the bad behavior but never saw it cheered on thank goodness. I would like to mention that I have seen kindness and a sense of welcome that I was surprised to find the first time I went. I guess a small group of people can make life miserable but that is when we need to search out those good ones who make the fest enjoyable and worth going. Some of the friends I met through the fest are people who either came right up to me or I just started talking to them. We can't change people but at least we can choose who we socialize with.  :)
" Some day we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny"

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2007, 07:04:22 PM »
Yes, it is within enclosed social circles at cons that I saw bad behavor cheered on.
But this kind of behavior could have been nipped in the bud if the fest organizers cared enought to set rules of conduct and enforce them, which is the norm at most events.

Unfortunately, they don't care, and a few miserable souls have been given carte blanche to hurt whomever they please.

David




Offline Nancy

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2007, 09:41:19 PM »
I've gone to the festivals (on the east coast) since 1984 and I have not ever seen what David described.  Those were personal situations he was involved with and nothing that affected the weekend festival as a whole.  The people who run the festival during the weekend are not there to police or referee for fellow fans - they are there to do what they can to help things go well.  I can also say that in most cases where a public disruption occurred, it was dealt with.  Disruptive people were quietly removed and/or forbidden to return.  Fortunately, incidents like that are the exception rather than the rule.

You can also have fans who are otherwise very civil and polite kind of lose it when they are in the presence of a "fantasy" if you will.  Coming face to face and having access to an actor long admired and incorporated into the fantasy world we all have going on can make otherwise well behaved people a little obnoxious and unreasonable.   However, since 1984 I can count on one hand incidents I have seen of really awful behavior manifesting itself (and not always the fans either).

From what I have heard from others attending conventions in all sorts of fandoms for decades, the DS festival is pretty tame fare.

Nancy

Offline Nancy

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2007, 09:45:10 PM »
That is not at all true, David.  Those who run the festivals are not there to babysit.  They are there to help run the festival and have some fun themselves.  It's not a paying venture.  Those who run the festival pay for their own room and food.  The code of conduct at a festival is the same for attending a football game, a dance -- any public function.  Nothing special.  I've assisted at the festivals for many, many years and have been one to have had disruptive people escorted out.  Still, having said that, I've never seen anything like what you describe happen publicly.  What happens between other fans is a personal matter.

Nancy

Yes, it is within enclosed social circles at cons that I saw bad behavor cheered on.
But this kind of behavior could have been nipped in the bud if the fest organizers cared enought to set rules of conduct and enforce them, which is the norm at most events.

Unfortunately, they don't care, and a few miserable souls have been given carte blanche to hurt whomever they please.

Offline adamsgirl

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #71 on: February 03, 2007, 12:26:02 AM »
That is not at all true, David.  Those who run the festivals are not there to babysit.  They are there to help run the festival and have some fun themselves.  It's not a paying venture.  Those who run the festival pay for their own room and food.  The code of conduct at a festival is the same for attending a football game, a dance -- any public function.  Nothing special.  I've assisted at the festivals for many, many years and have been one to have had disruptive people escorted out.  Still, having said that, I've never seen anything like what you describe happen publicly.  What happens between other fans is a personal matter.

I'm with you, Nancy. For the most part, attendees are adults -- most of us Baby Boomers. A code of conduct? By that age, I would assume they'd know how to mind their manners, and if they don't, shame on them. I don't see those who work the festival as having to be father/mother confessors, baby-sitters, or what have you. They very generously donate their time, from what I've seen, to make sure the festival runs as smoothly as possible and to provide the rest of the attendees with a good experience.

David

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #72 on: February 03, 2007, 06:26:04 PM »
Come on, Nancy, you know what goes on at these festivals.
You know how vicious some of the hatemongering has been, because you have also been subjected to it.

Sure there are good people at these things, and you., Nancy, are among the best.
But the bad folks are REALLY bad, displaying a vindictiveness that would never be tolerated at any other
event.
I know plenty of good people who, like me, no longer attend the fests because this behavior is often allowed to spiral out of control.
Throwing the bastards out is not babysitting, it's enforcing rules of decency and civility, which all public events need.

Here's food for thought:
DS ain't no Star Trek.
As much as I love DS, and I never even got into Trek, it's obvious that DS does not enjoy the huge fan base StarTrek has.
There have been 5 Trek TV shows, another Trek film is now shooting, there are hundreds of Trek novels~~these are not fan fiction.
There are numerous Trek cons all year long.
That's because Star Trek has a massive fan base that supports all this.

DS, in comparison, is a small cult.
For whatever reasons, whether deserved or not, all attempts to revive it have failed.
Many TV stations that aired DS reruns never showed the third or even second years because of low ratings.
DS is our love, but we are a very small group, and that's the truth.

Dozens of good people, many of whom still watch the show on DVD, will not attend cons or participate in fandom because of the atrocious behavior I'm talking about. I know four of them right here in San Francisco.
I knew others back in New York.

If the DS franchise is to survive, then those who would make others miserable neeed to be told to cool it, and those who have been subjected to this crap need to be not only heard, but listened to.

David

Offline Midnite

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #73 on: February 03, 2007, 07:01:10 PM »
David,

Do you really think that Fest goers should be kicked out for lack of civility, or for having vindictive or hateful feelings?  Or for displaying rudeness among themselves?  I'd prefer that the resources of the Festival security staff go toward personal safety issues, or behavior that disrupts the Fests for everyone.

Offline jimbo

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Re: ShadowGram Update #164
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2007, 07:31:17 PM »
David I have been going to these Fests since 1987. I honestly cannot recall security issues or other incidents you described. There may heve been incidents with that darn autograph line through the years but other than that I don't know. If you are talking about off Festival hours well even then I can't immediate recall any problems. My general perception and that by many others is that the Fest provides a safe environment to its fans. I hope a few incidents you may have been involved in or have witnessed years ago does not prevent you from attending another Fest if there is one.