Willie & Maggie

[Alondra]

I'm not suggesting Willie didn't love Maggie - I don't really remember that subplot though I could swear that he did propose some kind of relationship and while flattered Maggie turned him down (but I am usually wrong about these things [ie. Vicki slapping N Blair]   ) - but all the things he did for Maggie don't necessarliy add up to love. What about empathy? What about sympathy? Willie knows more than anyone what it's like to have your life taken away and to become a slave to someone else. Especially an innocent.

The NYC man who jumped in front of a moving train to save a total stranger a few weeks ago wasn't in love with him.

And didn't Willie pretty much try to save/warn/help everyone who was 'someone' that Barn intended to harm. Maybe a lot of his heroics were intended to show how much of a changed man he became.

I think you're referring to the time when [spoiler]Willie asked Maggie for a date and she turned him down. What happened was this: Willie put Josette's earrings into Maggie's purse, snuck into the cottage and dropped them in there, and no one ever found out he had done it. Maggie found the earrings and put them on. They did some kind of a number on her and she floated over to the Old House where she had a conversation with Willie, Barnabas being absent at the time. (this actually happened twice). She developed some rather warm feelings for Willie based on the earrings but not actually romance. She was willing to talk to him and be friends with him. Willie pushed his luck just a bit and asked her for a date and she turned him down saying Joe wouldn't like it. (so who invited him?) and explained that she was engaged to Joe. Drat it! She'd just had a fight with him and IIRC, this was when she made that hilarious statement about the babyfood. I sort of hoped she'd accept a date with Willie but alas it wasn't to be. Then there came the time Willie and Joe had a fight outside the cottage when Joe accused him of moving in on Maggie and Willie asked if he couldn't stand a bit of competition. They fought and of course Willie lost (another tirade I could make, Willie always lost his fights!) but Maggie consoled him afterward.[/spoiler]

Yes Willie did try to protect others who Barnabas threatened [spoiler]like Burke and David[/spoiler] but there was something special with Maggie and it did happen over and over throughout the course of the show.

Alondra

[Alondra]

This is just a thought that came to me just now but maybe the writers didn't pair Willie with anyone on the show because JK was coming and going so often in those days.  It would be very difficult to write a story around a character that was off and on again so many times.  They paired Willie up with "Roxanne" but never developed that into the story.  We never see or hear anything about her.

Very well said, Dom. 

This is a valid point since JK didn't have a contract and came and went as he had other projects he was working on. That would make it difficult for Willie to carry on a relationship. However this didn't seem to be much of a problem when he was playing [spoiler]Desmond and Kendrick later on.[/spoiler]

Alondra

[Mysterious Benefactor]

I feel that the stupid nit writers (which I will refer to them as when they make some blooper IMNSHO!) thought Willie was unworthy of Maggie so they'd pair her up with someone other than Willie

It can certainly be frustrating for fans of certain characters when the writers don't see them in quite the same way as their fans might. However, it's actually the writers who've conceived the characters who know them best and who have designed specific places/purposes for them within the canvases of the stories they're telling. It doesn't make the writers stupid when they don't use a character in a way that his/her fans might like to see.    How any specific character is interacted is completely within the purview of the writers.
(The only quibble I normally have is when a character has been presented one way within the various stories and then he/she might suddenly behave in a completely different way with no explanation of why/how said character's behavior would have changed.  )

[Brandon Collins]

My little list was compiled on two things: pining and actual love.

1. Barnabas and Josette
           --Barnabas and Josette did ACTUALLY love each other, so there's that. But Barnabas pined for her for over 200 years, wanting to turn every woman he met with dark hair and a fair complextion into Josette.

2. Barnabas and Julia
           --Barnabas never loved Julia, but her feelings for him put that matter out of mind because she was constantly following him around trying to get him to fall in love with her.

3. Barnabas and Angelique
           --They were actually in love, or maybe lust would be a better term, before he left her for Josette. Then she spent the rest of her years trying to get him to love her by torturing his family in her demented way of winning in over.

4...Willie and Maggie
           --While these two might belong above B&A and even B&J, I didn't put them there. The fact is that Willie did seem to have some feelings for Maggie, but we're not sure about whether that would completely blossom into love and marriage or not. Maybe it was just some type of kiddie crush--it's open to interpretation. The fact that she never returned his love put them even with Barnabas and Julia because B never returned Julia's love either. And the way her character was played, it was apparent, to me anyway, that her love was more than a crush. With Willie and Maggie, I guess it wasn't enough time for me to judge, or wasn't developed enough for me to call it complete and utter infatuation and love.

[Jackie]

This is a valid point since JK didn't have a contract and came and went as he had other projects he was working on. That would make it difficult for Willie to carry on a relationship. However this didn't seem to be much of a problem when he was playing [spoiler]Desmond and Kendrick later on.[/spoiler]

When JK played Desmond and Kendrick he was around more for the storylines.  I could be wrong about the details but early in his DS 'career', JK had job offers in LA.

[Alondra]

When JK played Desmond and Kendrick he was around more for the storylines.  I could be wrong about the details but early in his DS 'career', JK had job offers in LA.

I read somewhere that JK regrets that he left DS for such long periods of time, if he had known that DS would "live again" he'd have stuck with it. But at the time no one knew this, they thought the episodes would be seen one time only, and one job was as good as another. I wish they'd have known this too, since we'd have had more of him. I miss him during his long absences.

Alondra

[Maybellique]

I'm not suggesting Willie didn't love Maggie - I don't really remember that subplot though I could swear that he did propose some kind of relationship and while flattered Maggie turned him down (but I am usually wrong about these things [ie. Vicki slapping N Blair]  ) - but all the things he did for Maggie don't necessarliy add up to love. What about empathy? What about sympathy? Willie knows more than anyone what it's like to have your life taken away and to become a slave to someone else. Especially an innocent.

The NYC man who jumped in front of a moving train to save a total stranger a few weeks ago wasn't in love with him.

And didn't Willie pretty much try to save/warn/help everyone who was 'someone' that Barn intended to harm. Maybe a lot of his heroics were intended to show how much of a changed man he became.

Trust me, I'd be the first to discount it all, if I spotted any reason to doubt Willie's love for Maggie and that it was indeed merely sympathy he was feeling towards her. Yes, he did help and warn others. Yes, he was the guilty party, since he was the one to have freed Barnabas. But during the scene where he was in the basement, showing Adam all the jewelry (do you remember that scene?), when he revealed the earrings to him, Willie mentioned Maggie and said that she made him feel like he'd never felt before. Adam also mentioned to Nicholas-- later on-- [spoiler]when Willie hid Maggie away in the mausoleum to keep her from being used in the Eve experiment[/spoiler] "Willie's in love with Maggie".

I'm not saying that everyone who's ever "jumped in front of a train" for someone else wants to make mad, passionate love to them.  I'm just saying that our poor Willie was duped into loving a pretty girl who never really loved him back. The fact of the matter was that [spoiler]I didn't see him rush to save Carolyn when she was to be used in the Eve experiment. And he even suggested straight out that Vicki be used at that point.[/spoiler]

I'm not even really certain that any one of us can actually say who's love was the greatest on the show, because we all have our own opinions based on our own experiences. Some of us might say Barnabas, because of his powerful and unquenchable desire to get Josette back! Some of us might say Quentin for... whatever reasons. While there are others on this very board who would swear up and down that Julia's love for Barnabas was the greatest. Oh, and I've heard the arguments in favor of Angelique's love for Barnabas,too.  So, in the end, I guess it's all just a matter of opinion. ~DJ

[BuzzH]

The only quibble I normally have is when a character has been presented one way within the various stories and then he/she might suddenly behave in a completely different way with no explanation of why/how said character's behavior would have changed.

Like Nathan Forbes starting out a fairly decent fellow and then turning into a complete jackass!  

[Mysterious Benefactor]

Well, not quite. I completely agree with Brandon Collins that there were signs that Nathan wasn't quite as good as he tried to paint himself and his evolution makes sense:

Personally I think Nathan was always out for himself. Being close friends with Barnabas and the Collinses would no doubtedly gain him some clout in the community, and make him a upstanding citizen because of his relationship with the town's most prominent family. But, maybe Nathan realized that his relationship wasn't going to give him all he wanted, so he had to get in farther, and thusly started courting Millicent. He had to eliminate those around him who would pose a threat, and with Vicki's smart mind, she no doubtedly would've seen right through him in no time (provided that she STARTED understanding some stuff).   This drive for survivial and the selfishness led to everything that Nathan did. He helped Vicki at Barnabas' request, but saw better opportunity to paint himself in a good light by turning in the town witch and gaining celebrity for catching her. Incriminating part of the Collins family would eliminate the men who would be in his way in trying to woo Millicent, and at the end of it all he'd still have her upstanding name and back accounts. 

This is an excellant explanation of WHY Nathan changed, one I hadn't come up with myself even after wracking my brain for years trying to figure it out.    It certainly sounds very plausible to me.  

[Nancy]

As far as I'm concerned, there is no greater love on DS as the love Willie felt for Maggie.
You may comment...

You're wrong. That's my comment to you, missy.

Nancy

[michael c]

this might be slightly off-topic but i think it's a testament to many of the actors involved that what could be seen as a totally off-the-wall show can actually be emotionally involving.

i recently watched the episode where julia first discovers barnabas in his coffin.the set-up involves julia eavesdropping outside the old house near sunrise as barnabas sends willie off to portland on some errands and prepares to go "downstairs" for the day.he tells willie that he might as well leave now and get back as soon as possible.

i pictured willie in a beat up old truck driving down the backroads of maine before dawn and thought about what a lonely,narrow existance he must have lead during this time.for some reason i found this imagery to be quite moving.

i also thought it was sweet that willie had this secret crush on maggie,a "working class girl",rather than some of the show's more exalted heroines.

it's too bad that after joel crothers left the show they didn't explore this relationship a bit more.i guess the storyline began to yo-yo back and forth in time and become more plot-driven than character-driven so it wasn't really possible.

[Maybellique]

My little list was compiled on two things: pining and actual love.

1. Barnabas and Josette
           --Barnabas and Josette did ACTUALLY love each other, so there's that. But Barnabas pined for her for over 200 years, wanting to turn every woman he met with dark hair and a fair complextion into Josette.

I'm so tainted by the '91 series [spoiler]in which Barnabas actually DID cheat with Angelique after getting engaged to Josette[/spoiler] that I can't totally see past that. Understand that that was my first Dark Shadows. I think all I can really do is speculate based on various scenes that I've seen btwn '67 Barnabas and Angelique that they may have had something going on while in Colliinsport, but that's all there is to it. I have no hard evidence. ... Unless someone else knows something that I don't know about those two.

2. Barnabas and Julia
           --Barnabas never loved Julia, but her feelings for him put that matter out of mind because she was constantly following him around trying to get him to fall in love with her.

I still don't get how this is any different from puppy love. Is it maturity level? To tell you the truth, I thought Julia and Barnabas were amazing companions. They played off one another so well, but I never thought of them as anything but friends.

3. Barnabas and Angelique
           --They were actually in love, or maybe lust would be a better term, before he left her for Josette. Then she spent the rest of her years trying to get him to love her by torturing his family in her demented way of winning in over.[/spoiler]

OOOOOOOhhhh hahahhahaha! LOL! Love. That's a good one. No, I think you were right on the money in saying they were in "lust" with one another, rather. Actually, I take that back. Angelique seemed to have loved Barnabas. But I also felt that she wanted Barnabas because Josette had him. Did she truly covet everything her mistress had? Is that why she wanted Barnabas? Again, I haven't seen all of the 1795 storyline, so I really don't know.

4...Willie and Maggie
           --While these two might belong above B&A and even B&J, I didn't put them there. The fact is that Willie did seem to have some feelings for Maggie, but we're not sure about whether that would completely blossom into love and marriage or not. Maybe it was just some type of kiddie crush--it's open to interpretation. The fact that she never returned his love put them even with Barnabas and Julia because B never returned Julia's love either. And the way her character was played, it was apparent, to me anyway, that her love was more than a crush. With Willie and Maggie, I guess it wasn't enough time for me to judge, or wasn't developed enough for me to call it complete and utter infatuation and love.

Whether it would blossom into marriage or not is irrelevent, imo. Just because you love a person with all your heart doesn't mean that you're actually going to get to marry them. And yes, you're right. Very nicely put. It is open to interpretation. As I was saying before, I gather that we fancy certain couplings based on our own true experiences. :shrug: Or not. I think I like Willie so much because he was the unsung hero. No matter what he did for Maggie, she was never going to find out about it. Or, at least, she wouldn't retain the memories of him having saved her because of all the hypnotizing that was done to her. With Willie around, she was safe. No matter what plans they had for her, he was there to guard her. I think that was awesome. That's not to say that I think she should have loved him back for that sole reason. Love grows in different ways, I think, and someone mirrored my thoughts exactly in saying that they felt that he never quite got past his strong urge to protect her. My theory is that, while at Wyndcliffe, those thoughts persisted. He continued to think of her obsessively. That urge to protect her probably made him feel needed. I think that's what Willie needed the most around that time... to feel needed by someone. He had no where else to turn and no real friends, since Jason had bit the dust. So his thoughts, and then later his heart, clung to Maggie. I think that's sweet.
~DJ

[Janet the Wicked]

Oh Willie pined for Maggie, he carried a torch for her, but I wouldn't say it was DS's greatest love. I'm not sure just what I would say was DS's greatest love. Maybe it was Quentin's love for himself.

I stand corrected. You're right about Quentin. Lol!

[Alondra]

Well as much as I love Willie I do love to look at Quentin. And how!

Alondra

[Barnabas'sBride]

I'm so tainted by the '91 series [spoiler]in which Barnabas actually DID cheat with Angelique after getting engaged to Josette[/spoiler] that I can't totally see past that. Understand that that was my first Dark Shadows. I think all I can really do is speculate based on various scenes that I've seen btwn '67 Barnabas and Angelique that they may have had something going on while in Colliinsport, but that's all there is to it. I have no hard evidence. ... Unless someone else knows something that I don't know about those two.

I think the scene in the servants' quarters where [spoiler]Angelique says she's willing to be his mistress, the servant to his master, and Barnabas refuses because of Josette[/spoiler] deals directly with whether or not anything happened between them in Collinsport. I believe nothing did. When I viewed the revival series, that scene caught me off guard and I lost some of my sympathy for the '91 Barnabas because of it.

I'm not much of a fan of Barnabas and Julia in the romantic sense, but I wouldn't call Julia's love for him puppy love. She was the one - besides Willie - who saw every aspect of Barnabas's personality - the good and the bad. Her love might have been irrational at times, but I think it was true.

I love how protective of Maggie Willie is, even though he sure wasn't thinking when he [spoiler]takes her to the secret room in the mausoleum and causes her memories to return of Barnabas kidnapping her.[/spoiler]