Author Topic: Attributes of the Witches  (Read 1306 times)

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Offline Philippe Cordier

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Attributes of the Witches
« on: December 13, 2003, 06:40:35 AM »
Recent discussions in another thread got me thinking about what exactly a witch is.  Some statements presented there surprised me because I thought I knew ("of course, everyone knows what a witch is"), but this forum shows that there's always more to learn ...  :)

It might help to define what sort of witch we're talking about.

The witches that I'm somewhat familiar with would be historical "witches" and fictional "witches."  Another category might be modern day practioners of witchcraft such as Wiccans (not sure if I am using these terms correctly).

The usual thinking in academic literature is that those accused of witchcraft in historic times, as in the Salem trials and in the witch hunts all over Europe that spanned several centuries, were innocent people, often poor and disenfranchised women.  It's often claimed that those accused were usually people living on the fringes -- outsiders distanced by their unusual behavior and/or nasty personalities.  This definitely wasn't always true, as in the case of the Salem trials.  Those events took place in 1692 in Salem Village (which was later renamed Danvers, Mass.).

In contrast to this conventional view, someone on this forum pointed me to the writings of Margaret Murray, whom if I'm not mistaken believed that many of those accused of witchcraft were actually practioners of the old pagan religions.  I'm not sure what scholarly opinion has to say about this theory, but it's an interesting one.

It seems highly likely to me that in some cases those accused did deal with old folk beliefs involving things like herbs, charms, and spells.  In fact I know this is true in the country of Finland, where the practice of spells was fairly commonplace well into the Middle Ages if not later, and folk beliefs such as charms (both physical talismans and orally recited) continued well into the 20th century.  Proceedings against witches in Finland were usually prosecutions for malevolent witchcraft, while more "white Magic" witchcraft was more tolerated.  Perhaps uniquely, most of those prosecuted in that country were male, and there may be a connection between these male witches with the vanished shamanistic culture of ancient times.  The usual punishment was a hefty fine (such as a horse), although there were some executions too.  I believe that I have also read that there were witchcraft prosecutions prior to the Christian era, but I would have to do more checking to verify my memory on this point.

These are some of the historical witches, then.  So far this sounds different from witches like Angelique on DS, since the real life witches were human, mortal people who could, let's say, have possibly been lured off a cliff.  Whereas Angelique would seem to be far more powerful.  I can't think of specific examples offhand, but I think that's how we see Angelique.

I remember being surprised during my first complete viewing of DS during the last run on SciFi when it was said that Angelique was immortal.  I had never heard of witches being immortal before.  Does anyone know if this is actually common to fictional witches, or was this unique to DS?

Is Angelique the witch par exemplar, or is she really not all that special in the world of witches?  I know it has been pointed out in the past that she makes a lot of mistakes early on, although she is capable of transforming someone into an animal which shows she has some rather out of the ordinary powers, or at least access to them if not fully under control.

My experience with fictional witches that I can think of is mostly of witches as they appear in children's literature.  For example, in "Hansel and Gretel," the two children are able to outwit the evil witch and Gretel pushes her into the oven where she is killed.  I take it that some DS posters would not want to consider her as a real witch since she is deceived and killed (some indicated that this rules out someone like Joanna Mills from consideration as a witch).  Although today we think of fairy tales as for children only, they were originally told as folk tales and were not primarily told for children's enjoyment.  I also read an interesting analysis of a fairy tale that may have preserved a more positive view of witches and the apprenticeship to becoming a witch.

The other fictional witches that have stood the test of time that I remember are those in L. Frank Baum's Oz books.  Interestingly, Baum populated his magical land with both good witches (such as the unnamed Witch of the North, and Glinda the good witch of the South).  Magical practices are widespread in Oz and can be used for good or evil depending on the character of the witch or wizard.

Children's books are filled with witches and my sense is that there are many variations in the literature as to a witch is.  But there must be common denominators so that we recognize, yes, that's a witch.  I think Baum is somewhat unique in more classical literature for presenting so many positive views of witches.

I just realized that I'm leaving out the whole category of witches in the movies, which have probably shaped our view of witches as much as anything else.  My guess would be that these are overwhelmingly negative portrayals, with witches being in league with evil.

Does anyone care to elaborate on what they think a "witch" is, in any of these contexts?  I got the impression from some comments that there are certain things that define a witch and other things that rule one out as a witch.  If that's the case, what are the rules, and what is the origin of these rules, I wonder.  ("Rules" may not be quite the right word.  Someone may have a better term but at least you can probably tell what I'm getting at).  Are they based on fictional representations I'm not aware of, or might these conceptions stem from the thinking of modern day Wiccans?  Or some other source?

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Offline Raineypark

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2003, 03:27:23 PM »
As fascinating as a discourse on the nature of Witches might be....do you really think much of it would be useful in a discussion about Dark Shadows?  Frankly, I don't think that much thought, (and even less scholarship) went into the creation of Angelique.

To begin with, modern day Wiccans have NOTHING to do with it.  The re-emergence of ancient nature/feminine based spiritual practices was in its infancy in the mid-60s and I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that Dan Curtis or any of the writers was a devotee.  Even if it turns out that they did have knowledge of it, nothing of it appears in any form in the series.  Actually, perhaps the attempt by Bathia Mapes to cast out evil would be recognised by modern practitioners as a banishing spell...but a poorly executed one at that.  ::)

So, that leaves us with the historical and fictional accounts of Witchcraft, and these I think the writers used with no regard for their origins.

Angelique is a work of fiction....like every other thing in the series.  Fiction has license that history does not.  And Dan Curtis took license with damned near everything he created.

Has anyone ever compiled a list of every single previous work he "borrowed" to create DS?  I'd be curious to see exactly how many other artists actually "contributed" to the stories of DS.

One of the earliest would have to be the "Malleous Maleficarum" written by those wretched monks Kramer and Spenger in 1486.  From this notorious work comes the tradition of Witches as those who have sold their souls to The Devil and turned away from God.  That would be our Angelique.  She came under the influence of Judah Zachary AND Nicholas Blair and Diabolos.  No pagan mysteries here....just a girl too pretty for her own good, bored with colonial New England life, probably tired of being hit on by old Puritan men, looking for something new and exciting in her life.  Enter witchcraft.

After that point, it's all plot driven.  When they needed to move the plot in one direction or another, they give her the required power, or they took it away, depending on the desired outcome.  I can't imagine anyone in on the writing ever looking at anyone else in the room and asking "Can witches really do that?"  If they needed it.....she could do it.

I don't really think one can point out direct references to any other work of fiction involving Witchcraft.  Well, perhaps "Bell Book and Candle" in which Kim Novak played a VERY blonde and VERY beautiful witch. [winkb]

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Offline LdyAnne

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2003, 02:25:51 AM »
Wasn't the TV Show Bewitched on at this time too? I think Samantha was a bit of a roll model for our Blond witch. If memory serves Sam was really quite old having been painted by a Dutch Master at one point.

Offline Gothick

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2003, 04:12:51 PM »
About a week and a half ago, I watched again the marvelous early Sixties British romp "Burn, Witch, Burn!" (UK title:  Night of the Eagle)--currently available on VHS but not, so far as I am aware, DVD.  Anyhow, I had forgotten a couple of key plot devices that were borrowed by the DS writers, notably the scene during the 1795 storyline in which Angelique smokes Vicki out of the Old House with her very own brand of tarot spell (definitely one of those DON'T try this at home moments n DS).  I also recognized a scene from PT 1970 that I think must have been inspired by this film.

As for Angelique, in the early episodes of 1795, there does seem to have been some care on the part of the writers to have her act as a traditional kitchen witch, gathering herbs for her spells, purloining objects that belonged to her victims, etc.  Maybe the point where the writers start to give her some odd powers to move the plot forward comes where she creates her own Servitor in the form of the bat--this is much more in line with a ceremonial magician than a kitchen witch.  Once that bat appears, Angie's metamorphosis into what my friend Nicky and I call "SuperWitch" begins.  up, up and away!

that sexy hexie,

Gothick

Offline Philippe Cordier

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2003, 02:04:28 AM »
It looks like I could have edited my original post down to a sentence or two; guess I could use an editor on occasion . . .

Some very good and informative responses, not surprisingly.  I LIKE to imagine the writers picking up some general books on witchcraft and the supernatural that might have contributed to their portrayal of Angelique, etc.  I don't know if Barnes & Noble existed as a bookstore then with their inexpensive reprint editions of old classic works, like Montague Summers.  Something like that would seem more likely than, say, library research.  Someone definitely did their homework in the area of the Naga cult, for example.  I think I heard that some of the writers haunted used bookstores for these types of books.  On the other hand, Rainey's comment about Angelique's powers being decided more on plot changes than anything sounds realistic though a bit sobering.

I'd forgotten about Samantha on "Bewitched" being immortal (or at least very, very old).  Would love to see that episode again where she was painted by the Old Dutch Master -- I seem to recall some episode with Leonardo da Vinci and wonder if that's the one LadyAnne is thinking of.

Will have to keep a lookout for "Burn Witch Burn" . . .

In case I don't get a chance to log in again before leaving town for a couple of weeks . . .  happy holidays to all.

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Offline Luciaphile

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2003, 02:18:53 AM »
Some very good and informative responses, not surprisingly.  I LIKE to imagine the writers picking up some general books on witchcraft and the supernatural that might have contributed to their portrayal of Angelique, etc.  I don't know if Barnes & Noble existed as a bookstore then with their inexpensive reprint editions of old classic works, like Montague Summers.  Something like that would seem more likely than, say, library research.  Someone definitely did their homework in the area of the Naga cult, for example.  I think I heard that some of the writers haunted used bookstores for these types of books.  On the other hand, Rainey's comment about Angelique's powers being decided more on plot changes than anything sounds realistic though a bit sobering.

Well, the show was based in NY so I imagine that they did not lack for bookstores. Anyhow, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the writers incorporated some of their interests and may have done some cursory research at times. All that Eastern stuff had to come from somewhere :)
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Offline Dr. Eric Lang

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Re:Attributes of the Witches
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2003, 02:22:35 AM »
Vlad - one thing was made very clear by the writers: Angelique  received her powers from The Devil himself, and she herself said as much in one of her incantations. In regards to her various abilities, naturally they were storyline driven, but there does seem to be a power progression as the series wore on. It seems that every time she was "destroyed" and, presumably, returned to the depths of Hell, she managed to convince her  Master to return her to the world of the living to do his bidding. Each of her resurrections may have given her additional power.

She does seem to be "immortal" in the sense that no matter how many times she is destroyed, her soul remains intact and  can potentially return to earth once more.  On the other hand, I tend to think of an "immortal" as someone who cannot die, which does not describe Angelique, for she died many times.