DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '03 I => Topic started by: Philippe Cordier on February 13, 2003, 04:08:20 AM
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A few years ago, this forum (actually its VantageNet forerunner) was responsible for my delving into a bit of research into secondary sources on the 18th century Comte de Saint Germain, whom someone had referred to as the inspiration for Count Petofi.
Recently in another thread, Gothick suggested some other potential candidates who may have contributed to the Petofi character. Without commenting on his information (which I'm less familiar with), I thought I'd share some of what I found out about St. Germain. Trying to find accurate information on the historical Comte de St. Germain isn't easy, so I may be saving someone else the time and effort of sorting through some of the rather questionable information surrounding him. (My interest in St. Germain happened to dovetail with another interest I was involved with at the time where St. Germain also made an appearance and incidentally introduced me to alchemy. It also gave me an idea for a section of my Angelique story -- which I'm not too optimistic about ever completing. My story has flashbacks of Miranda du Val leaving the American colonies for Europe, where she transforms herself into Angelique before winding up in the West Indies ... )
I should also mention that doing a simple web search on St. Germain isn't as easy as you might think. There are endless variations on the form of the name: sometimes "saint" is spelled out, sometimes it's abbreviated "St."; sometimes there's a hyphen between Saint (or St.) and Germain and sometimes not; sometimes one sees "Comte" (French for "count") and sometimes "Comte de" with any of these variations, and sometimes "Count." Once you've gone through all those possibilities, much of the information about St. Germain you'll find on the Internet is unreliable, to put it mildly.
The Comte de St. Germain (a pseudonym; his real name is unknown) was a "mystery man" of apparently unlimited wealth who moved among the highest circles of nobility in Europe in the late 1700s, charming several of the crowned heads of Europe, who usually gave him free lodging on palace grounds sometimes for years (remind you of Collinwood's many extended guests? ;)). In the centuries that followed, myths about him grew, until he became an immortal figure said to still be living today, or an Ascended Master. Dubious memoirs circulated wild rumors about his strange powers, prophecies, and immortality. He became popularly associated with secret societies and alchemy. Despite the speciousness of some of the claims about him, authentic sources of the time do recount him as a remarkable man, though a few detractors considered him a charlatan and liar. (The sardonic nature of Voltaire's often-quoted reference to him seems to have gone over the heads of the "true believers.")
The Comte was fluent in many languages, was an accomplished painter, violinist, and composer. (Some of his music has been published by the Philosophical Research Association; none of his paintings are extant.) When he died (his death in 1784 and his will are well documented), it was discovered that he owned nothing but some old clothes and toilet articles. No paintings, diamonds, books, manuscripts, musical scores or instruments were found.
A highly skeptical account of the "Comte's" doings can be found in The Myth of the Magus by E. M. Butler (Oxford Univ. Press). That's probably the best overview -- especially if you enjoy a little debunking. The most detailed source I discovered is a scholarly biography by Jean Overton Fuller, The Comte of Saint Germain, published in England in the 1980s. Fuller is a Theosophist, i.e. a member of a metaphysical group that claims St. Germain as an Ascended Master. Fuller gives the Comte the benefit of the doubt on nearly every front, but she also bravely cuts through the vast amount of unreliable sources and fabricated testimonies to reveal him as primarily a chemist and entrepreneur who had a philosophical bent. She discounts the popular beliefs that he was an alchemist, a Mason, and denies his reputed authorship of "La Tres Sainte Trinosophie" (The Most Holy Trinosophia).
After all this library legwork over the years, I recently found a website for the "Fortean Times" that is unique in presenting accurate information about St. Germain. The article was written a couple of years ago (after I had done all of my reading). The URL is:
http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/146_stgermain.shtml
Despite Fuller's efforts towards a balanced biography, her account fails to even consider what kept nagging at me as I investigated other sources: the "count" sounds suspiciously like a con man. A year or so after I had done most of my reading, French conman Christophe Rocancourt was in the news and I was struck by a number of similarities. Both St. Germain and Raconcourt were suave, polished men who moved comfortably among top celebrities, gave the appearance of great wealth, were fluent in many languages, were art connoisseurs, and traveled much of the globe under a variety of aliases. In reality, the jetset Rocancourt was a lower class conman with a rapsheet who was busy bilking investors on the East coast while wining and dining Hollywood celebrities on the West coast (he was kissed by Mickey Rourke and married a Playboy centerfold). Rocancourt was known as the "Hamptons Hoaxer" and the "Counterfeit Rockefeller," after his claim to be heir of an otherwise unknown French branch of the Rockefeller family. (He is actually the son of a prostitute and is currently being extradited from Canada to the U.S. to face a number of charges.) St. Germain claimed to be a long-lost scion of the Transylvanian House of Rakoczy and rightful heir to a throne.
What does all this have to do with Petofi? Petofi does have a few things in common with the Comte de St. Germain: both are cultured sophisticates who travel under false identities, both claim titles, are supposedly immortal and possess magical powers. The Comte might well have been the initial inspiration for the Count. However, the path diverges from that point on. Petofi's associations with the gypsies, his suffering from the werewolf curse, his ownership of the last unicorn, and his evil nature turn him into a very different character from the real life Comte de St. Germain.
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Vlad...thank you.
That was very interesting.
I know of the "Counterfeit Rockefeller."
Patti
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Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto? I may still have a copy of one of their books around. (My friend's mother bought it by mistake years ago because she thought, from the cover picture, it was about Angels revealing the big secret of Fatima, or something like that.)
And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy--- close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi" (or however the DS writers spelled it. It seems they were all over the place, in the literary field.)
I have a magazine with an article about the American beginnings of the St. Germain cult (prior to Prophet), which began in New Jersey, of all places, and still has an HQ there. Interestingly, they've apparently registered copyrights on the names "St. Germain" and "Ascended Masters", with the encircled-R symbol following these terms at all times.
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Thanks Vlad, that was so informative. I'd heard mention of the Comte de St. Germain in a few books, but didn't really know much about him. Now my interest is Stoked (pun intended) to find out more about the man. Do you really think this is where the DS writers came up with the idea for Petofi?
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Interesting analysis, Vlad. It seems that the ancienne regime was especially fascinated by gentlemen with mystical powers. Charlatan, magician and adventurer Count Cagliostro might also have been an inspiration for the Petofi character, although he might have been a less accomplished one.
Franz Anton Mesmer, the psychic healer, also springs to mind, although he may be more of a reach. Apparently his reputation as originator of hypnosis is wrong as it was, allegedly, one of Mesmer's students who came upon that method by accident.
BTW, love that St. Germain paper doll!
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Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto?
Yes. The Church Universal and Triumphant believes that St. Germain was the reincarnation of Francis Bacon and I forget who else.
And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy---close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi"
Wow, I hadn't noticed that. I, too, now wonder whether it's just coincidence.
Cassandra Blair and Happybat, I'm not actually the person who proposed that St. Germain was the inspiration for Petofi. It was referred to on the VantageNet board by a couple of posters as a given, something that everyone knew. I think I may have come across a reference to St. Germain in a "real life mysteries" sort of book when I was in junior high, but such an association did not immediately spring to mind when I viewed the Petofi episodes for the first time a couple of decades later.
Mfmiozza may have been someone who brought this up on VN, but I'm really not sure. I'm pretty sure that whomever it was quoted Lela Swift (I know it was a female member of the DS team) as saying she wanted to bring in a character modeled after Comte de St.-Germain.
-Vlad
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I came across St. Germaine when I was doing research on astral projection for a fan fiction story that I was writing. I needed one of my characters to take Barnabas back in time but not via the I Ching. St. Germaine is associated with The Violet Flame which I used to transport Barnabas back to 1795.
Don't ask me to explain it--just put The Violet Flame in Search.
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One of the authors I do online publicity/marketing work for, Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, has a long-running series of historical horror novels about Count Saint-Germain. In her series she takes the real man's claim of "immortality" a step further and made him a vampire. The first book, HOTEL TRANSYLVANIA (1978), was reprinted last January and has an essay on the real-life man in the back of the book. The 15th book, NIGHT BLOOMING, came out last fall.
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Is this the same St. Germain that Elizabeth Clare Prophet and her gun-packing cult latched onto? I may still have a copy of one of their books around. (My friend's mother bought it by mistake years ago because she thought, from the cover picture, it was about Angels revealing the big secret of Fatima, or something like that.)
And what a coincidence (?) that this character claimed to be related to a noble family named Rakoczy--- close enough to the DS gypsy "Rakosi" (or however the DS writers spelled it. It seems they were all over the place, in the literary field.)
I have a magazine with an article about the American beginnings of the St. Germain cult (prior to Prophet), which began in New Jersey, of all places, and still has an HQ there. Interestingly, they've apparently registered copyrights on the names "St. Germain" and "Ascended Masters", with the encircled-R symbol following these terms at all times.
Yes it is the same Saint-Germain.
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Saint-Germain-as-a-vampire persona is also a copyrighted fictional character (i.e. people can write about the real life man but the vampire persona is hers). Unfortunately Quinn has had to point it out many times in fan fiction related issues. :-(
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Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Saint-Germain-as-a-vampire persona is also a copyrighted fictional character (i.e. people can write about the real life man but the vampire persona is hers). Unfortunately Quinn has had to point it out many times in fan fiction related issues. :-(
That's interesting. So even if the ff is written for recreation and not for profit, the creator can still prevent fans from writing about it?
BTW, it's great to see all these posts from you, Wiley!
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That's interesting. So even if the ff is written for recreation and not for profit, the creator can still prevent fans from writing about it?
BTW, it's great to see all these posts from you, Wiley!
Thanks Midnite! I don't get to post as often as I would like but love reading the boards.
Yes re: copyright. There are many authors who do not allow fan fiction to be written using their characters. Besides Quinn, I know that Anne Rice and Robert Jordan do not allow fan fiction from their character. Profit is not always the underlying reason -- distribution, contractual/legal/publisher reasons also come in to play.
But the profit issue does make some authors nervous: if everyone can write their own story/book using a character an author created, then why would anyone need to buy said author's books?
In Quinn's most infamous case in the early 1990s, a fan wrote her and said "can I use your vampire in my story?" Quinn wrote back and said no, that for many reasons she cannot allow fan fiction to be written using her vampire Saint-Germain, and suggested that the fan come up with her own vampire character. A bit of time passed and Quinn's lawyer found a fanzine at a party she was attending that had a story featuring vampire St. Germain plus TWO of Quinn's other characters.....and the note from the magazine's publisher said something to the effect of "Chelsea Quinn Yarbro was not supportive of the idea but we thought the story was good so we will publish it anyway and hope she will forgive us." It was eventually settled out of court with all copies of the zine recalled and turned over and apologies were advertised in Publishers Weekly and other science fiction and horror publications and organizations.
Some authors *do* allow fan fiction to be written.....but IMHO it's best to ask first when someone wants to do a story with a character from a book....
Here's a list that has some authors' policies posted if anyone is interested.
http://www.writersu.net/?link=authpolicy
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Amazing -- the 18th century chemist and businessman is now a New Age "saint" and a vampire!?!
Although biographer Jean Overton Fuller represents St.-Germain's primary interest as developing dyes for fabrics (this is what the documentary evidence shows), it's clear that he at least had a philosophical side, and that of an esoteric and metaphysical nature. The record is vague as to the precise nature of his esoteric interests and involvement.
Fuller reproduces a poem he wrote in French which she claims is unique in its philosophical/metaphysical outlook. She even goes so far to say that the poem reveals a depth of metaphysical wisdom (note, these are my terms, I don't recall her exact terminology) unparalleled in anything else ever written.
This is a pretty heady judgment, and one I question. When I investigated medieval alchemy texts, I saw some of the same ideas expressed, and in a similar manner, as in the poem written by Comte de Saint-Germain. This suggests to me that he was familiar with alchemy -- and may have practiced it (something Fuller rejects on the basis of there being no documentary evidence and the result of later mythologizing about him).
So he may have had esoteric, philosophical interests. This makes him an interesting man in my book, but unfortunately it doesn't dismiss the possibility that he may have been little more than a charlatan, akin to some New Age gurus of our own time.
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http://www.writersu.net/?link=authpolicy
Thank you for the link-- VERY eye opening. And how reckless of that fan to go ahead with the story, sheesh.
Imagine the legal fees in trying to keep up with all the fan stuff. Ugh.
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Amazing -- the 18th century chemist and businessman is now a New Age "saint" and a vampire!?!
Although biographer Jean Overton Fuller represents St.-Germain's primary interest as developing dyes for fabrics (this is what the documentary evidence shows), it's clear that he at least had a philosophical side, and that of an esoteric and metaphysical nature. The record is vague as to the precise nature of his esoteric interests and involvement.
Fuller reproduces a poem he wrote in French which she claims is unique in its philosophical/metaphysical outlook. She even goes so far to say that the poem reveals a depth of metaphysical wisdom (note, these are my terms, I don't recall her exact terminology) unparalleled in anything else ever written.
This is a pretty heady judgment, and one I question. When I investigated medieval alchemy texts, I saw some of the same ideas expressed, and in a similar manner, as in the poem written by Comte de Saint-Germain. This suggests to me that he was familiar with alchemy -- and may have practiced it (something Fuller rejects on the basis of there being no documentary evidence and the result of later mythologizing about him).
So he may have had esoteric, philosophical interests. This makes him an interesting man in my book, but unfortunately it doesn't dismiss the possibility that he may have been little more than a charlatan, akin to some New Age gurus of our own time.
Vlad --- thought you may be interested in a list of books about the historical Saint-Germain cited in Quinn Yarbro's essay "My Favorite Enigma"
in her 1983 short story collection THE SAINT-GERMAIN CHRONICLES (# 6 in the series). Don't know if any of these are still available but research libraries may have them somewhere in the world:
Jacques Casanova de Seingalt, MEMOIRS
A. Cockren, ALCHEMY REDISCOVERED AND RESTORED
Madame la Comtesse de Genlis, MEMOIRS
Baron von Gleichen, MEMOIRS
Poems Philosophiques sur l'homme
Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians
And her essay includes a list of Saint-Germain's music that was available as of 1983, but not in the U.S.
Musique Raisonee
Six Sonatas for Two Violins with a Bass for the Harpsichord or Violencello
Seven Solos for a Violin
There's also an essay she wrote called "From Dracula to Saint-Germain when she decided what aspects of vampirism, etc. to use when she began developing the idea for the series around 1971 but I'm having trouble inserting the link, will try again later.
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Here's the link I mentioned from Yarbro's "From Dracula to Saint-Germain essay/speech she gave in 1997 as a keynote speaker at Boston College. It's a condensed version; the full version goes into more detail.
http://www.stealthpress.com/store/authors/Chelsea_Quinn_Yarbro/essay.asp?mscssid=D05G40V9
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Wiley, thank you for sharing your information.
I am familiar with some of the resources you list. I have a 1-volume edition of Casanova's memoirs published by some university press a few years ago, and I have the alchemy book (very outdated info on St-Germain, though). All of the sources are referred to in the Fuller biography. Some were published a couple hundred years ago and may not have been reprinted, so they might be a bit difficult to obtain (maybe inter-library loan could get them :) ). I also have the biography by Isabel Cooper-Oakley, an early Theosophist. Her biography quotes extensively from contemporary letters and documents, although as noted earlier, many of these have proved to be fakes.
Over the weekend I skimmed through the Fuller biography and was convinced the noble man really was of noble blood. Then I re-read Butler's study in "The Myth of the Magus," which interprets the same documentary sources but to a very different end, completely convincing me that he was a fraud. Butler's source is Volz, which I wish I could get my hands on but I don't read German and it dates from before WWII.
It's too bad St. Germain's music is not more readily available. I have a tape from "L'Incostanza Delusa," an opera pastiche that he composed for, which I obtained either from the PRA or the Theosophical Society a few years ago. Unfortunately the recording quality wasn't very good, and coupled with my not very high end equipment, the quality seemed to degenerate further after I played it a couple of times. The music reminded me vaguely of Mozart, although not so complex and rather repetitive. Also, the music had been re-transcribed for solo piano rather than the string orchestra original. Still, it was fascinating to catch a glimpse (?) of this music--pleasant, but not something that would normally have outlived the time period. It would be fascinating if any of St. Germain's paintings had survived ... like the original Josette's music box, someone out there must have one, somewhere! Here again, though, the debunking-believer Fuller doubts that the Comte executed any paintings himself.
-Vlad, last scion of the UMN (Upper Midwestern/Nordic) branch of the Rockefeller family ;)
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And her essay includes a list of Saint-Germain's music that was available as of 1983, but not in the U.S.
Musique Raisonee
Six Sonatas for Two Violins with a Bass for the Harpsichord or Violencello
Seven Solos for a Violin
I used to play the violin, although that was 20 years ago. I wish it were possible to see the music for Comte St.-Germain's violin solos.
The Philosophical Research Society published a facsimile of a few of his compositions, but there were severe shortcomings with what they presented. For example, they published the six sonatas for two violins, but the violin part was not included ... with no explanation, only the treble cleff (bass chord) was printed! So it was not possible for me to obtain any idea as to the violin part.
I know there have been at least three librarians on this forum. If any of you are reading this, do you know if it's possible to somehow see any of this music? If it hasn't been published (as it appears most of St.-Germain's music has not been), do ordinary people have any chance of seeing the scores, or copies of them?
My research indicates that the music for the violin solos is in the British Museum.
Many thanks for any possible input.
(Interesting how my involvement with this topic has played into my life in a number of ways. For example, I was reminded that one of my grandfathers, who played in an orchestra, made arrangements and did some composing. I know my mother has some of his sheet music, and I hope to look into this further.)
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they published the six sonatas for two violins, but the violin part was not included ... with no explanation, only the treble cleff (bass chord) was printed! So it was not possible for me to obtain any idea as to the violin part.
That didn't make a lot of sense, did it? ::)
I really did play piano and violin for about 10 years, even if it seems I don't know a treble cleff from a bass cleff. Well, it has been 20 years since I was involved with music -- but I think what I meant to say here was that the printed score was only of the bass cleff accompaniment; the violin part (treble cleff) was not printed.
Librarians?
Musicologists?
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It's too bad St. Germain's music is not more readily available.
I have a tape from "L'Incostanza Delusa," an opera pastiche that he composed for, which I obtained either from the PRA or the Theosophical Society a few years ago.
here is a quote from the grove dictionary of music and musicians:
"Saint Germain, Count of
(d Eckernfƒ¶rde, 27 Feb 1784). Courtier, adventurer, amateur scientist, inventor and dilettante musician. He purposely concealed his background and identity, and used such pseudonyms as Count Welldone, Prince Ragotzy, Count Bellamare and Count Surmont on his wide travels throughout Europe. Further confusion has arisen with the like-named French general Claude Louis de Saint Germain and with Robert-Franƒ§ois Quesnay de Saint Germain, an ardent occultist who may have written the essays La trƒ¨s sainte Trinosofie and La magie sainte (still used by Freemasons) that are attributed to the count. Gerber, alone among the many commentators on Saint Germain's life (which has many times been made the subject of fiction, by George Sand and Bulwer-Lytton for instance), maintained that he was identical with an obscure violinist and composer in Berlin named Giovannini, but this is improbable. Saint Germain was most likely either the son of Franz Leopold Rƒ¡kƒ³czi, exiled Prince of Transylvania, or the illegitimate son of Maria-Anna of Neubourg, widow of Charles II of Spain. In his youth he was probably a protege of the Grand Duke Gian Gastone (the last of the Medicis) and may have studied at Siena University. He appeared in London society from about 1743, and in 1758 was in Paris, where he became a favourite of Mme de Pompadour and Louis XV. After an embarrassing affair as an unofficial political agent in The Hague (1760) he returned briefly to England. Further travels took him to Russia, Germany and Italy; he visited Berlin at the invitation of Friedrich August of Brunswick, and in 1779 Prince Karl of Hesse, his last patron, gave him a building for his scientific experiments. He claimed to have made several discoveries applicable to manufacturing processes and was associated with industries in the Low Countries.
Most of Saint Germain's musical activities were associated with his visits to England, although his talent was also praised by the French courtiers. According to Burney, the ¢â‚¬Ëœcelebrated and mysterious' Count Saint Germain contributed several songs to the pasticcio L'incostanza delusa (1745) and attended its rehearsals with Prince Lobkowitz (to whom the libretto was dedicated); his ¢â‚¬ËœPer pietƒ bell' idol mio' was encored nightly, but Burney considered the other songs in the published score insipid. Horace Walpole, who claimed that the count had been in England for about two years by December 1745, described him as follows: ¢â‚¬ËœHe sings, plays on the violin wonderfully, composes, is mad and not very sensible'. He published in London several sentimental English songs, a collection of 42 Italian arias (Musique raisonnee) and a book each of trio sonatas and solo violin sonatas. The aria collection includes the three from L'incostanza delusa; texts and music range from unpretentious idylls to intense dramas, all with considerable emphasis on accurate text rendering. His trio sonatas combine polyphonic and homophonic styles, but the violin sonatas are more Rococo in character.
WORKS
Vocal: Gentle love this hour befriend me, song (London, c1745); 3 arias for L'incostanza delusa (pasticcio), London, 1745, in Favourite Songs (London, c1745); The maid that's made for love and me, song, in London Magazine (1747), 46-7 [also pubd as Oh wouldst thou know what kind of charms, Gentleman's Magazine, xvii (1747), 441, and with new text in The Summer's Tale (pasticcio) (London, 1765)]; Jove, when he saw my Fanny's face, song, in Gentleman's Magazine, xviii (1748), 372; Musique raisonnee selon le bon sens aux dames angloises qui aiment le vrai goƒ»t en cet art, insts (London, c1750); The Self Banish'd, song (London, ?1750)
Inst: 6 Sonatas, 2 vn, bc (London, c1750); 7 Solos, vn, bc (London, c1758)
BIBLIOGRAPHY
BurneyH
GerberNL
E.M. Oettinger: Graf St. Germain (Leipzig, 1846)
L. Wraxall: Remarkable Adventurers and Unrevealed Mysteries (London, 1863)
I.C. Oakley: The Comte de St.-Germain: the Secret of Kings (Milan, 1912, 2/1927/R)
G.B. Volz: Der Graf von Saint-Germain (Dresden, 1923)
A.E. Waite: ¢â‚¬ËœComte de Saint-Germain as an Historical Personality', Occult Review, xxxvii (1923), 219
P. Chacornac: Le Comte de Saint-Germain (Paris, 1947/R)
J. Franco: ¢â‚¬ËœThe Count of St. Germain', MQ, xxxvi (1950), 540-50
W.S. Lewis and others, eds.: The Yale Edition of Horace Walpole's Correspondence, xix (New Haven, CT, 1955), 181 only
J.H. Calmeyer: ¢â‚¬ËœThe Count of Saint Germain or Giovannini: a Case of Mistaken Identity', ML, xlviii (1967), 4-16
J.O. Fuller: The Comte de Saint-Germain (London, 1988)
J.H. CALMEYER"
no wonder i couldn't find him right off. i didn't understand what some of you were saying lol... musiquee rasionee is a type of french music style, not a name of a work and it's opera pasticco not opera pastische! also the opera's name, L'incostanza delusa was written by Josef Haydn. a not a very original guy if he's involved in pasticco (it means pie or patchwork, in other words his arias would be with someother more famous composer's work and it would end up on london as the last stop.) lol.....
as far your recordings go, it looks like you are stuck with what you have as it doesn't list any of the recordings available. you are lucky to even to have that recording! he is a pretty obsure guy in the world of musicology. but it does give further biographical references so goodie i hope i helped find out more information for those that are interested in reading further.
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no wonder i couldn't find him right off. i didn't understand what some of you were saying lol... musiquee rasionee is a type of french music style, not a name of a work and it's opera pasticco not opera pastische! also the opera's name, L'incostanza delusa was written by Josef Haydn. a not a very original guy if he's involved in pasticco (it means pie or patchwork, in other words his arias would be with someother more famous composer's work and it would end up on london as the last stop.)
VictoriaWinters,
Thank you for sharing your musical knowledge (and for your IM providing more details about conducting a music search on obscure works)!
After reading your comments here, I checked with the Overton-Fuller biography I mentioned. She has fairly detailed information on St.-Germain's music -- probably one of the better chapters in her book, though she writes more as an amateur researcher than a professional historian.
"Musique Raisonnee" may be a type of music, as you say, but sources indicate that this is the actual title of one of St.-Germain's compositions. The full title of the work is lengthy, but it begins: "Musique Raisonnee selon le bon sens." A copy of the original score is in a museum in Prague.
According to Overton-Fuller, "L'Inconstanza delusa" was an opera by Giuseppe Ferdinando Brivio. It was possibly at Brivio's invitation that St.-Germain composed several additional arias for the opera's London performances. English music historian of the time Burney designated it as a pasticcio, but this appellation is questioned by Overton-Fuller.
Other than the opera, it appears that the majority of St.-Germain's other music was performed in drawing rooms and salons.
........................
Since my original post, I came across an entry for St.-Germain in the Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology. Their entry raises even more questions, concluding that St. Germain was a Porteguese Jew, not a Hungarian/Transylvanian Count brought up in the household of the Medicis. Interestingly, they do not list the Overton-Fuller biography as a source -- but they do list Elizabeth Clare Prophet ... ::)
This entry also debunks St. Germain's great age, giving him a more reasonable death at age 70, as opposed to Overton-Fuller, who has him born about 25 years earlier (which is necessary to fit with her theory that he was the last scion of the House of Racozsy.
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"Musique Raisonnee" may be a type of music, as you say, but sources indicate that this is the actual title of one of St.-Germain's compositions.
i stand corrected, see entry above. but it is also a style or musical idea of somekind. no time to do more research here on this point and was more fansinated by below....
According to Overton-Fuller, "L'Inconstanza delusa" was an opera by Giuseppe Ferdinando Brivio. It was possibly at Brivio's invitation that St.-Germain composed several additional arias for the opera's London performances. English music historian of the time Burney designated it as a pasticcio, but this appellation is questioned by Overton-Fuller.
looked up maestro brivio for you and found out he was an opera composer and impresario* from milan with dates of ? to ?ca. 1758. (it happens churches burn, documents lost, etc. - he'd actually make a great time travel character. lol!) so he matches the count as far as being a contemporary. now dig this part. the opera "L'Inconstanza delusa" did have a setting composed by him in 1739? (Milan where he was voice teacher and impresario) with two arias tacked on for london 1745, the same year as the count's above-mentioned. it's not unusual to have multiple composers set the same titles of operas, so yes haydn (1732-1809) did his version as well but just later. search orfeo someday.
now i'm looking in mr. grout's the "short history of opera" and it says that there were two types of pasticcos. this one falls into the later definition wherein eg., someone wrote an opera. (in this case, brivio.) the opera starts generally in italy but could also be in france (lully, etal.) or maybe germany but mozart hasn't hit the scene yet. (1756-1791). now handel was in london from around 1712, via the long way around from hamburg and italy, had stopped composing operas and turned to oratorios around 1738-1741. so big void in london for operas in 1745. (an aside of historical context.)
so back to our story, "L'Inconstanza delusa" would have traveled around from place to place to place and finally would have landed in london (the normal last destination). the opera would have undergone patching and alteration, mainly by it's original composer. because this was the time of "opera by the numbers," each aria, chorus, etal. stood as a separate composition within the whole of the work and could easily be altered by the original composer or another composer. arias cut, arias added, you get the gest. it's not until post-mozart that opera by the numbers became through composed in nature.
as above noted in the grove entry, it says the count wrote three arias for the 1745 london and in my lastest research brivio wrote 2 for 1745 london. new grove also states that there is no evidence that brivio was actually in london in 1745. normally, you can tell by the scores of the composer (observing the watermarks or by their letters, newpaper accounts or other people's letters, bills, etc.) where they were and this is what is meant by that statement.
an opera is not made by three to five arias. never was, never has been. therefore, what i conjecture is that the count was in london, the production of this opera gets to london in 1745 along with brivio's extra arias quite possible along with a voice student of brivio's. the count writes the three he did and voila the pasticcio or london version of 1745. the newer arias would have replaced the original probably at the beginning and ending of the acts as per mr. grout's explaination.
so, the work i pasted together here is supporting the pasticco and not any other form or type of opera. it's not intended in any way a put down of the composition(s). they didn't have the same ideas about copyright that we do. neither did they have the same ideas about music drama until maestro christophe gluck came around a bit later and reformed the entire mess it had become. maestro gluck's ideal was that the lyric was not to be overwhelmed by the vocal gymnastics that opera at this particular point in time had become. additionally, the audience of london was different then anywhere else and it required different elements for an opera to be successful there. thus, the pasticco designation is not at all surprising.
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mr. charles burney was the originator of what would become the "new grove dictionary of music and musicians" which was recently completed overhauled by the good people working in london taking into account newly discovered information since it's last reprint in the 1970s. so we will probably see him in many entries or most of them as one of the bibiliographic sources of the older entries.
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*an impresario is a more or less a producer of opera.
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Other than the opera, it appears that the majority of St.-Germain's other music was performed in drawing rooms and salons.
this would have been the modus operandi of the day with no real public or government support of the arts in place at this point. the aristocracy would have been the main patron of music at the time. the salon was also very popular in beethoven's and schubert's day and where they were able to earn a day to day living. also, no TV, recordings or radio. it was all live and no other way to hear music other then in your head.
this could be re-worked into a really fantastic fan fict. story using the mystry of count st. germain along with varying ideals borrowed from music mythology. (i noticed our count petofi reading his music score very intently while "air" conducting in a recent epi.) in mythology and greek ideals going back to plato, music has the ability to heal or even influence the gods, namely pluto of the underworld into releasing a dead person. (see myth of orfeo, king david of the bible, etal.) but that is another lecture all together lol!
thus ends today's opera hour.
victoriawinters
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Victoria Winters, I can't tell you how excited I was to read your post! I do hope we don't get the plug pulled on us for straying so far off-topic ;D but I have several comments to make and some of them will relate directly back to DS -- if I can remember everything as I type this!
First, all of this information about opera and music can be seen as relating to Count Petofi, since we have seen that music is one of his passions.
I would agree from what you describe (and also from what Fuller's book on St.-Germain says) that the London production of "L'Inconstanza delusa" had become a pasticcio.
I don't mean to fault Overton-Fuller too much. Anyone interested in St.-Germain must be indebted to her dogged research (if they can plow through her idiosyncratic writing). The Philosophical Society, which published some of the sheet music (see my earlier post) did not provide any of this context. In fact, they reprint six arias from what they incorrectly call "St. Germain's opera," but my further study of Overton indicates that St.-Germain only wrote three of these! See what I mean about the difficulties of finding accurate information about St.-Germain?
what i conjecture is that the count was in london, the production of this opera gets to london in 1745 along with brivio's extra arias quite possible along with a voice student of brivio's.
If you are suggesting that St.-Germain might have been a music student of Brivio's -- that is an absolutely brilliant deduction!
Fuller comments in her book that St.-Germain likely received his music education when he supposedly was brought up in the household of the Medicis in Italy. However, she is taking the Comte at his word -- others are more skeptical that he was "brought up in the household of the Medicis."
also, no TV, recordings or radio. it was all live and no other way to hear music other then in your head.
Good point. We take the availability of music for granted, not thinking how what we today call "classical" music must have been the domain of the aristocracy and gentry ...
this could be re-worked into a really fantastic fan fict. story using the mystry of count st. germain along with varying ideals borrowed from music mythology. (i noticed our count petofi reading his music score very intently while "air" conducting in a recent epi.) in mythology and greek ideals going back to plato, music has the ability to heal or even influence the gods, namely pluto of the underworld into releasing a dead person. (see myth of orfeo, king david of the bible, etal.)
We are thinking on the same lines then. In a different thread (?) I recently referred to my unfinished Angelique story. To my thinking, Angelique (or Miranda duVal, rather), left the American colonies for Europe. France, specifically. Coincidentally, the time line happens to be during the reign of Louis XV -- whose court St.-Germain was then dazzling. Miranda changed her name to Angelique in France. In fact, I believe there may have been a French revolutionary with the last name of Angelique. I don't want to give more of my story away ... (Including my rather unique idea about Angelique's original nationality.)
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Finally, I am in the process of translating a metaphysical poem by St.-Germain. I have about 80 percent of it translated but would like to ask the assistance of any interested party knowledgeable of the French language for assistance with half a dozen French words and phrases. (The real difficulty is finding a way to express things in English, not the word-for-word translation, though it's the latter that I am requesting some help with.)
-Vlad
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i hope no plugs are going to be pulled! i've rather enjoyed our meeting of the minds. and, of course, it delights me to no end to share about my subject field, opera! ;D
i believe the topic of music is directly related to dark shadows. try to imagine the impact the drama of dark shadows would have for us without robert colbert's haunting music! i, for one, would find it oftentimes hard to see it working without it. quentin with no shadows of the night?
back to more discussion re st. germain................
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the involvement of st. germain with louis xv was certainly historical fact from all that you and i have found. louis xiv (i mean him-xiv) was a huge patron of the opera form.
while i wasn't really wasn't indicating that st. germain was a student of brivio's, it is certainly a possibility. it is also a distinct possibility that st. germain may have been a singer and performed his own work at the salons of the day. milan (brivio's location) was a huge opera center and still is today with the teatro la scala. (la scala wasn't there in 1745 but the teatro duca was.)
certainly, the medici's were huge patrons of the arts. florence is the literal birthplace of opera. the big wedding of henri iv of france and marie de' medici in 1600 was marked by the performance of the first surviving extant opera, euridice by peri & caccini. in tow to this wedding would have been the duke of mantua with his maestro di cappella, claudio monteverdi, the father of opera. he took the experimental form and developed it to it's maturity. the rest they say is history 300 plus years later.
as far as finding really acurate information about anyone particularly in the music field, that is oftentimes a crap shoot. fires were a big problem! records destroyed or lost. yikes! we are also finding that good scholarship goes a long way to providing some needed answers but sometimes you just run into dead ends. or you can get really lucky like the musicology dude who went to st. mark's in venice searching the gabrieli's and finding monteverdi's work! (monteverdi was posted there after the death of the duke of mantua.)
the count also seems an elusive guy, posing more difficulties in reseach. moving from place to place. sort of like our dear petofi. and with all the records burning off from time to time he could have really been anyone or copied anyone without reproach.
petofi's character i think utilizes music for both his own pleasure or could potentially use it as a source of evil. i am about a week behind on my episodes, but am fansinated to see what the writers will eventually do with his character. i love to hate him!
as for the french, translation is no longer my bag. i've left the word by word business to others. lol!
this has certainly been a fasinating discussion for me and i'm looking forward to seeing your work when you have it finished. i think throwing angelique into this mix of music and intrigue will be quite a fanisinating read. since midnite, dom and MB do not allow posting of such work, please announce to the group your url of where you are keeping it.
thanks much.
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I have nothing substantive to add. Just wanted to say that this exchange was wonderful to read. I know very little about music and had never even thought to look in Grove for the Comte. You've added to my appreciation quite a bit!
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In a different thread (?) I recently referred to my unfinished Angelique story. To my thinking, Angelique (or Miranda duVal, rather), left the American colonies for Europe. France, specifically. Coincidentally, the time line happens to be during the reign of Louis XV -- whose court St.-Germain was then dazzling. Miranda changed her name to Angelique in France. In fact, I believe there may have been a French revolutionary with the last name of Angelique. I don't want to give more of my story away ... (Including my rather unique idea about Angelique's original nationality.)
...
-Vlad
Vlad,
That sounds absolutely fascinating and I hope to see it, too, one day. The art, culture, and yes, fashions of the 18th century have always intrigued me.
And I thought I know a little about classical music, but you and victoriawinters have blown me away with your knowledge of such esoteric musical matters!
Moving away from St. Germain and Brivio, whom I've never even heard of before, I wonder why the DS writers/producers had Petofi looking at the score of Berlioz's "Harold in Italy". Wouldn't "Symphonie Fantastique" have been an even better choice? Did DS ever use a movement from this same piece? Maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me. Anyway, drug-induced hallucinations, a haunting theme repeated over and over, hellfire and brimstone - it would be a natural for Dark Shadows, don't you think? ;)
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And I thought I know a little about classical music, but you and victoriawinters have blown me away with your knowledge of such esoteric musical matters!
Thank you Happy Bat.
Moving away from St. Germain and Brivio, whom I've never even heard of before, I wonder why the DS writers/producers had Petofi looking at the score of Berlioz's "Harold in Italy". Wouldn't "Symphonie Fantastique" have been an even better choice? Did DS ever use a movement from this same piece? Maybe my memory is just playing tricks on me. Anyway, drug-induced hallucinations, a haunting theme repeated over and over, hellfire and brimstone - it would be a natural for Dark Shadows, don't you think? ;)
Either score would make a great choice. They both have weird elements. Berlioz is known for his orchestration and his unusual mix of instruments together. He uses an odd mix of instruments such as flutes and trombones playing dissonant notes in the Requiem. He just has that way of making anything sound like hell.
But I do agree that the Witches Sabbath (Symphony Phantastic) movement would fit just lovely into our favorite daily drama. lol!!!!!!
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But I do agree that the Witches Sabbath (Symphony Phantastic) movement would fit just lovely into our favorite daily drama. lol!!!!!!
What a wonderful thread! We've had long discourses on books and films...but I don't recall one like this on Classical music.
Now, someone, PLEASE give me the Title and Artist of a CD where I can hear "Symphony Phantastic"!!
raineypark
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Hi Raineypark,
If you go to CD Now or whatever, and type in "Symphonie Fantastique" (making sure you've got the Classical Music search engine turned on), the computer will tell you about cartloads of recordings of this work by Hector Berlioz. It is what we used to call "one of the warhorses."
I hope you are managing to avoid the latest incursion of SNOW we are getting dumped with here in Boston.
Witchy and fantastic regards,
Steve
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Thank you Steve. Tho I hope there aren't TOO many choices....otherwise I'm still going to need a reccomendation before I purchase one particular version! I went through quite a few versions of Antonin Dvorak's "Symphony for the New World" before I found the one I liked!
Escape the snow? No, we did not escape the snow. There IS no escaping the snow anymore. I keep wondering when they moved Long Island to the place where Caribou, Maine used to be! ::)
rainey
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Whew! There's so much to respond to here with everyone's posts!
the involvement of st. germain with louis xv was certainly historical fact from all that you and i have found.
This is very outside info and I'm not even sure I should be mentioning it, but I can't resist -- someone in my family owns a clock that was owned by Louis XV, made by his royal clockmaker. I don't even dare describe it in detail, because this is a priceless museum piece -- one of the loveliest items I've ever seen outside Versailles itself ... I've seen it several times and it could help inspire the story I've mentioned writing ...
while i wasn't really wasn't indicating that st. germain was a student of brivio's, it is certainly a possibility. it is also a distinct possibility that st. germain may have been a singer and performed his own work at the salons of the day. milan (brivio's location) was a huge opera center and still is today with the teatro la scala.
The reason your idea excited me so much is because Fuller quotes an authority on music whom she asked to examine photostats of St.-Germain's music, and one expert commented that the arias might have been composed as exercises undertaken during musical studies ... Also, St.-Germain was said to be a singer as well as violinist. There are huge gaps in the record of his whereabouts, often a dozen years at a time, when he really could have been anywhere, so he could easily have been a student of Brivio's in Italy.
the count also seems an elusive guy, posing more difficulties in reseach. moving from place to place. sort of like our dear petofi. and with all the records burning off from time to time he could have really been anyone or copied anyone without reproach.
Another helpful insight -- thank you.
petofi's character i think utilizes music for both his own pleasure or could potentially use it as a source of evil. i am about a week behind on my episodes, but am fansinated to see what the writers will eventually do with his character.
Excellent use of Hungarian folk music in today's ep, when Petofi is under a gypsy tribunal (sorry, hope that's not too much of a spoiler!)
i'm looking forward to seeing your work when you have it finished. i think throwing angelique into this mix of music and intrigue will be quite a fanisinating read.
I'm looking forward to seeing it done, too. ;D Sorry to say, though, it has been a couple of years since I started this story, and I honestly don't know when I'll get back to it. The comments in this thread are inspiring me, though. But I do have another story that was much closer to completion that I should finish first.
If anyone who has knowledge of literary French does have an interest and the time, please IM me. I would just e-mail you about 6 - 10 words or phrases. My knowledge of French is elementary, but the harder part would be trying to recreate something of the sound of the original, rhyme scheme, etc. I somehow translated several Petrarchan (Italian) sonnets in graduate school using my knowledge of Spanish, and they came out surprisingly well.
RE: Berlioz's music. I'm glad to be informed about this, too. I'm not familiar with the work and probably couldn't identify Berlioz by hearing. (OT-- my favorite composers are Bach, Vivaldi, and Heinichen -- I can usually identify them accurately ... and Mozart and Beethoven, too. And of course Debussy, Chopin and others would be my second favorite era, though I'm not very knowledgeable about time periods, classifications of music, etc. I undertook a study of Mozart's late symphonic scores at one time and got to know those quite intimately -- though Mozart is not my favorite composer by any means. Most beautiful piece I can think of: Alegri's Miserere; though I think Andrew Lloyd Weber's Requiem is nearly as wonderful.)
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What a wonderful thread! We've had long discourses on books and films...but I don't recall one like this on Classical music.
Now, someone, PLEASE give me the Title and Artist of a CD where I can hear "Symphonie Fantastique"!!
raineypark, i am recommending to you the recording by leonard bernstein with the new york philarmonic. while not the "definitive" recording, i think you will enjoy LB's conducting. plus, i happen to know there is a huge bassoon part in one movement and the NY Phil has some fantastic bassoonists!
the other reason i'm recommending this recording is that LB explains the whole piece on track six. it's called, "berlioz takes a trip." (an opium trip that is. lol!!!!)
on amazon, i found it for $11.98. i might just get it for myself lol!
(now for more modern recordings there is colin davis. but i would not get the set with the complete orchestral works with jose carreras. i don't care for him. i still haven't forgiven him for his performance on west side story with bernstein conducting. also, a recording on deutche gramaphone will be of top sound quality.)
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This is very outside info and I'm not even sure I should be mentioning it, but I can't resist -- someone in my family owns a clock that was owned by Louis XV, made by his royal clockmaker.
that must be quite something to see. it must be really ornate. i bet it still keeps perfect time too!
There are huge gaps in the record of his whereabouts, often a dozen years at a time, when he really could have been anywhere, so he could easily have been a student of Brivio's in Italy.
anything is possible with this guy!
Excellent use of Hungarian folk music in today's ep, when Petofi is under a gypsy tribunal (sorry, hope that's not too much of a spoiler!)
looking forward to that.
The comments in this thread are inspiring me, though. But I do have another story that was much closer to completion that I should finish first.
sounds like me having all kinds of web pages in the works lol!
RE: Berlioz's music. I'm glad to be informed about this, too. I'm not familiar with the work and probably couldn't identify Berlioz by hearing. (OT-- my favorite composers are Bach, Vivaldi, and Heinichen -- I can usually identify them accurately ... and Mozart and Beethoven, too. And of course Debussy, Chopin and others would be my second favorite era, though I'm not very knowledgeable about time periods, classifications of music, etc. I undertook a study of Mozart's late symphonic scores at one time and got to know those quite intimately -- though Mozart is not my favorite composer by any means. Most beautiful piece I can think of: Alegri's Miserere; though I think Andrew Lloyd Weber's Requiem is nearly as wonderful.)
you might. i think part of the symphonie fantastique was used in disney's fantasia. if you remember that, then you have also heard stravinsky's, rite of spring.
i have such a hard time picking favorite composers and find myself constantly finding new favorites the more i find new and unique things to listen too. it's still the never ending job building up an opera recording library. but at least now have some great old recordings. some of them i like better even though they are in mono. a great voice is a great voice just period.
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raineypark, i am recommending to you the recording by leonard bernstein with the new york philarmonic. while not the "definitive" recording, i think you will enjoy LB's conducting....... also, a recording on deutche gramaphone will be of top sound quality.)
What a coincidence!!! The Dvorak recording that I mentioned above was conducted by LB....and recorded on Deutche Gramaphone. I guess excellence is obvious, even to a tin ear like mine!! Thank you, victoriawinters!!