Author Topic: (***DEFINITELY CHECK THIS OUT NOW**) Austin Live Theatre: Fan-Produced DS webseries beginning in January  (Read 9301 times)

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Offline borgosi

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I'm saying if it his family were around they should at least be asked before he's life work is used for something. I'm saying that NO ONE should have to right to add to his plays and claim a writing credit new to his on his plays. I'm all for Westside Story and not for King Lear and The Vampire by William Shakespeare and Borgosi. I would be all for a new story inspired by King Lear by Borgosi with a completely different title. I shouldn't be able to claim that I wrote a play with Shakespeare or to even give that appearence.
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Offline KMR

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So if you wait long enough you should be able to take something that doesn't belong to you. I believe that time shouldn't make a crime legal. I believe that taking something that does not belong to me to be wrong and that the passage of time sould not change that. It makes no difference if it's a book, a song, a movie or a house. If a family shouldn't be able to own a book for hundreds of years why shouldn't that apply to a family home? Or anything else? You said descendants hundreds of years later shouldn't be able to profit from literary work, if it should apply to that why not everything?

Borgosi, this is definitely the most extreme take on intellectual property that I have ever seen. Ever. Copyright (and that's what it is, copyright), in western societies, has always been seen as something that was granted by the government for a limited period of time, in order to provide benefits to both the creator and the public. Copyright allows the creator to realize gains from the creation. The limitation on the duration of copyright has two purposes: one, it allows the public eventually to be able to freely incorporate previously-created material into new works; second, it is incentive for the creator to create new works and not just laze around (and even his descendants to laze around!) forever because of the good fortune to have created one fabulously successful work.

Offline Robot_Quentin

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I am a complete idiot on the subject, but a professor told me one time its only copyright infringement if you are trying to pass something off AS the original work. But if its called Dark Shadows, I guess that would be a problem. How about just call the damned thing "Shadows in the Darkness"? 

Its really to bad that WB won't be fan-friendly with this DS thing. Paramount has looked the other way for years while Star Trek fans make their own feature-length epics... As long as they don't make anything monetarily off those things, that is!!
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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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It should probably be mentioned that there's no indication that Warner Brothers had anything to do with the Austin group's DS series being pulled. As sara Monster posted back in reply #18, the only thing the group posted was that representatives of the Curtis estate asked it to be pulled. The involvement of WB and/or MPI and/or Big Finish in the estate's action has all been speculation. And while it's not out of the realm of possibility that the estate took WB, MPI and Big Finish into account with its decision because they're involved with various official DS products, there isn't anything to indicate the estate consulted with any of those entities. It's just as possible that the estate acted completely alone.

Offline tragic bat

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Copyright (and that's what it is, copyright), in western societies, has always been seen as something that was granted by the government for a limited period of time, in order to provide benefits to both the creator and the public. Copyright allows the creator to realize gains from the creation. The limitation on the duration of copyright has two purposes: one, it allows the public eventually to be able to freely incorporate previously-created material into new works; second, it is incentive for the creator to create new works and not just laze around (and even his descendants to laze around!) forever because of the good fortune to have created one fabulously successful work.

I agree with you; it is the right to copy, and it is called intellectual property for a reason; because it isn't a physical house or acreage; it exists rather all over the place in perhaps millions of widely distributed copies.  Most of Shakespeare's plays would never have been written if endless copyright laws were in place during his time; as most of his works were derivative, being drawn from old literature that he brought into the medium of theatre.   The copyright for Oscar Wilde's work ran out in recent years, and because of that there have been a lot of new movies made from his plays, even lesser known ones never filmed before; I think that is a great thing.  Wilde's works, like Shakespeare, Shelley, and the Bronte's are historical cultural resources, not belonging to any one person.  And that is good, because people are free to interact with them, translate them, and reimagine them as they wish.   
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Offline borgosi

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We will never agree about this and that's ok but I'll never understand how it's ok for Seth Grahame-Smith to get paid 100% of the writers fees for a book that he only wrote about 15% of when the writer of the other 85% ( or their estate if they're still around ) gets nothing.
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Offline KMR

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We will never agree about this and that's ok but I'll never understand how it's ok for Seth Grahame-Smith to get paid 100% of the writers fees for a book that he only wrote about 15% of when the writer of the other 85% ( or their estate if they're still around ) gets nothing.

Yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  I personally see nothing wrong with Grahame-Smith creating a derivative work, giving credit (in the form of first billing on the title page) where due, and reaping all of the monetary rewards because the creator of the original work no longer holds copyright according to the customs of nearly all societies in the world (and has been dead for nearly 200 years to boot).  Our society would be very culturally impoverished (not to mention exponentially more litigious than it already is) if there were not duration limits on copyright.

Offline borgosi

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I guess the difference is that imho if you use 85% of the original work it isn't derivative it's coping. If it is so close to the original that you have to list the original author it isn't derivative. Horror of Dracula is derivative of Dracula. Curse Of Frankenstein is derivative of Frankenstein, but if it's 85% of the original book it's no longer derivative it's a copy. If something is a derivative it has been changed. Seth Grahame-Smith added to the original and he included Jane Austen's name because had he not it would have been plagiarism. That should tell you something.
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Offline MsCriseyde

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Seth Grahame-Smith added to the original and he included Jane Austen's name because had he not it would have been plagiarism. That should tell you something.
The inclusion of Austen's name on Seth Grahame-Smith's book had to do with the fact that he used exact phrasing from Austen. There's a cottage industry of fiction derived from Austen's novels, including books like Mr. Darcy, Vampire, that don't give a byline to Austen because they don't use her exact words.

If you have an interest in the topic of plagiarism and intellectual property rights beyond posting about it here, let me recommend Thomas Mallon's Stolen Words. He discusses the psychology of the plagiarist, and he has an interesting final chapter about a lawsuit involving Earl Hamner's Falcon Crest series. Hamner was accused of ripping off Anita Clay Kornfeld's novel Vintage. Ultimately, Hamner won the case because it was demonstrated that both works relied on standard characters and plot devices associated with the family saga, and earlier works were actually cited as a shared inspiration.

In the case of Austen and some of the horror texts, films, etc. that have been mentioned in this discussion, one or two works eventually inspired a whole genre once they were allowed to come into the public domain. If you don't allow derivative works to exist at some point, then the arts would've died centuries ago.


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Offline borgosi

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I have no trouble with derivative works. My problem with the Seth Grahame-Smith's book and books like it is about him using Jane Austen's work word for word. Truth is I'm not even a Jane Austen fan. I don't want to see this done to classics that I do love. I think we all know that when something makes money people copy it. What's next "Dracula In Love" by Bram Stoker and Stephine Meyer? "Frankenstein's Children" by Marry Shelley and Rob Zombie? I just believe that if a writer, any writer is going to write a book / short story / screenplay derivative or inspired by another story they should at least write the whole story in their own words. I don't think it's to much to expect a writer to write all of the books he is going to profit from.
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Offline The Doctor and K9

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While I find this topic interesting and engaging, wouldn't it be more to the point to concentrate on what we can do to save the DS Web Series?  It's a longshot, but perhaps a letter campaign, a SNAIL MAIL mountain, would be effective.  Is there somewhere we can write to the estate of Dan Curtis?  I recommend respectful letters that concede their right to shut it down but ask humbly that they generously reconsder.  One could also point out all the other franchises that have video projects associated with them.  If someone has an address, I'll shoot off a letter Monday.

It's often hard to gauge exact meaning on the internet. My first sentence was intended to be taken literally. It was not a criticism of anyone's point of view on the topic of plagiarism or intellectual property rights.

Offline Sara Monster

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I would think, at the very least, it
While I find this topic interesting and engaging, wouldn't it be more to the point to concentrate on what we can do to save the DS Web Series?

See, I would think that, at the very least, their efforts should be shared. Perhaps at the Fests? Afterall, there are other fan made videos already being shown, right? Also, I had briefly contacted the Youtube channel where they were hosted & was told they had actually filmed up through episode 5. Could be a nice addition to the other movies shown each year.

Offline borgosi

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If the name were to be changed and the names of the characters were changed. Maybe the estate would be ok with it. Maybe if you could only get the series by e-mail.

The theater group, if they still want to do it, would have to take to the estate and decide on a plan of action.

We could write letters all day but until the two parties talk to each other nothing is going to happen. Do we know for sure that the estate told them to stop? All we have is their side of the story. Maybe it was costing them to much. Maybe they don't have the time to keep doing it. Maybe some of their actors just quit.

I think DCP or it's estate has a long record of allowing fan produced stories, fan zines, songs, toys, and other items. Maybe someone could contact the estate and get their side of this. I think that would be the place to start.
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Offline Midnite

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If you want to discuss a campaign to save the Web Series, that's a different story.

Thanks, because that would also be on topic. [thumb]  If a poster has something new to add that isn't about Austin Live's webseries, provided it does relate to DS, please start a separate topic for it.  And it's extremely important to remember that any debate must remain within the guidelines that you all agreed to when registering:

3. Debate should be kept on a non-personal basis. Flaming and name-calling will not be allowed. It is never appropriate to attack, criticize, or condemn another poster. Retaliation, sharp reproof and cynicism are to be avoided. Disagreement is a natural occurrence, but as stated above, should be done in a respectful manner. Likewise, these disagreements should not be continued beyond the normal limits of interesting discourse. Argument for argument's sake is not welcome.

Offline borgosi

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As much as I'd like to see the webseries keep going I have ask myself if normal people, those who haven't followed this show 40 years after it went off the air, may not go see the new movie after seeing a webseries? Could this webseries cut into the box office of the new movie? If it did could that cause us not to get sequels? If it could I say "No More!"

I want the new movie to be very big. I want it to set box office records. I'm against anything that could prevent that. I'm hoping that they didn't wait to long to make the movie. If it comes out at the end of this wave of vampire movies and shows it could fail no matter how good it is. I'm hoping that doesn't happen as well. DS is the original vampire love story and it should be the biggest and best.
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