Author Topic: Discuss - Ep #0548  (Read 1914 times)

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Discuss - Ep #0548
« on: May 21, 2008, 06:42:43 PM »

Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 11:31:51 AM »
The situation in this episode comes to my mind more often than most situations in the series, because it is so troublesome. Angelique asks Barnabas to forgive her.  Well, it is our Christian duty to forgive those who trespass against us, and even though I am not a Christian, I do believe that it is beneficial to the injured person to forgive the one who injured him if possible (although sometimes it is not possible).  So it is in the best interest of Barnabas that he should endeavor to forgive Angelique.  But what Barnabas doesn't know is that if he succeeds in forgiving Angelique, she will be saved from dying, and, because she is who she is, she will resume tormenting him - with or without her powers - in whatever way she can.  So it is in the best interest of Barnabas that he should endeavor not to forgive Angelique.  I'll probably never make up my mind which way Barnabas should go at this point.
 
When Barnabas was talking to Angelique, he also mentioned the injuries that she did to his loved ones.  That's another troublesome situation.  It is so hard to feel justified in forgiving a person who has hurt somebody you love.  It's like turning your back on your loved one.  But if Angelique is truly penitent, then doesn't she deserve forgiveness?  Of course we know that in fact she is not penitent, but that doesn't change the reasoning - or does it?  Can somebody who is capable of doing what Angelique did in 1795 ever be the sort of person who is capable of fully regretting such actions?  There's a whole train of "but this" and "but that" thoughts leading from this, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that this forum has a finite amount of server space, so I won't go any further.

A while back I wondered why Angelique didn't just quit Diabolos's team.  I guess the answer was clear today when she was talking with Nicholas.  She loves those powers of hers too much, and her beauty as well.  She is truly one of the damned.
 
Poor Roger.  He was so happy a few weeks ago!  It wasn't real: it was brought about by a spell - but still, he was happy.

Offline sallycollins

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 03:26:44 PM »
Excellent analysis, Lydia. I am recalling this episode from memory and this is not the first time Angelique claimed to be sorry, will change, and so on. When Jeremiah's ghost was haunting her she swore to Ben that she wouldn't hurt people any more. That lasted about two episodes. I'm also torn about what Barnabas should do.

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Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 08:28:08 PM »
There's a whole train of "but this" and "but that" thoughts leading from this, but I vaguely remember reading somewhere that this forum has a finite amount of server space, so I won't go any further.

Our only concern is that server space not be needlessly taken up by excessive quoting. However, no one should ever curtail their thoughts and opinions in an effort to save space. Sharing thoughts and opinions is what this forum is all about.  [ghost_smiley]

Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 02:24:12 AM »
I don't think the Devil lets you quit.  I think Ang was only alive because of Satan and he could revoke that at any time.

We all come up with our own answers on mercy or forgiveness, that don't work for anyone else, probably.    I can't really put myself in Barnabas's place.   Anyway, Ang didn't even try to reform.    We don't usually let murderers off the hook, though a case could be made that having them put into cages (jails) isn't much of a solution.   (That's just "storage".)   How much legitimate bitterness Barnabas feels is perhaps dependent on how those years in the coffin went for him.    If he was conscious during the nights, that's beyond any hell we can imagine.   Anyway, sometimes we don't forgive, and sometimes we shouldn't.   Sometimes they don't deserve it.

I can almost buy the semi-forgiveness of 1840, but in 1968 she's demonstrated no real repentance.  I know, she doesn't have time to, 'now', in 1968, but that doesn't change anything.   

The character is so engaging and magnetic that we like her despite ourselves.    She's a real rat, though.

Forgiveness for crimes such as hers is a remarkable thing, and sometimes awe-inspiring.   It should stay "remarkable" to us, though.    I would never expect it or consider it obligatory for someone in Barnabas's position.
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 02:44:44 AM »
Magnus, I can't believe that God (in whom I don't believe, but I am assuming him for the sake of argument) would ever turn his back on one who wanted to go from the darkness to the light.  Angelique always has the option of changing sides.

As forgiveness - my general feeling is that either it happens or else it doesn't, that we have no control over it, and that often it is time that brings about forgiveness.  But I picked up that feeling from CS Lewis, and since I have decided that he doesn't give enough credit to how helpful a procedure or routine can be in regulating one's feelings, maybe I should give some thought as to how one would go about setting up a procedure that would guide one to forgiveness.

Our only concern is that server space not be needlessly taken up by excessive quoting. However, no one should ever curtail their thoughts and opinions in an effort to save space. Sharing thoughts and opinions is what this forum is all about.  [ghost_smiley]
You just don't understand.  It's quite possible for me to dither on and on about this issue with no feedback from anybody at all until there's no server space left.

Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 03:10:11 AM »
Hey, I'd like to see that!    Go ahead Lydia!   Consider it a challenge!    Pick up that gauntlet!

Angelique is just on furlough from Hell.    Her afterlife has already been decided.    The Devil though, out of the goodness of his heart, sent her back topside on a mission to curse her old husband incredible slowly.   I believe Ang is hooked up to Hell via an incredibly long extension cord, or a really powerful remote control, supplying her with "life", or some semblance of it.  I think the elastic yanks her back if the Devil or Diabolos or whoever decides to, because she's not doing her job.

Could a soul in torment in Hell choose to reform and be redeemed, and be allowed out of Hell?   Who knows, but it's not supposed to work that way.

In the world or theology of DS, people can become unfairly cut off from God or God's mercy.    Barnabas was cursed, and as a cursed being he was invisible to, or an exile from, God.    The symbol of Christianity makes him suffer.   All this was not because of anything wrong that Barnabas did, but because of a witch who should have been the one judged.   

Considering how shockingly unfair real life is, as well as DS, this is not an unreasonable sort of theology, to me.    Maybe it has to be that unfair, but it definitely is.
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Offline EmeraldRose

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2008, 06:23:19 AM »
I don't blame Barnabas for not being able to forgive Angelique. [ghost_angry] I wouldn't have forgiven her, either. [ghost_nowink] I suspect Nicholas gave her one last chance just to watch her demean herself. Nicholas probably knew that Barnabas wouldn't forgive her. [ghost_rolleyes]

I'm glad Nicholas thought about an excuse for Angelique's disappearance. [ghost_smiley] It would have been horrible for Roger to not know. Even though it's a lie, at least  Roger can go on with his life.  [ghost_wink]

I agree, this was an excellent episode. [clap2]

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Offline MagnusTrask

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2008, 11:22:46 AM »
I'm sure Nick had no intention of honoring that deal, and Ang probably knew, but they both knew she was totally desperate and had to take the non-existant chance that Nick was sincere, and that this was exactly what Nick enjoyed about it all.
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2008, 01:03:00 PM »
I disagree, Magnus: I think that Nicholas would have kept his word, although he might well have done so with a twist of some sort.  Greek mythology includes the story of a man named Tithonus, to whom Zeus granted immortality but not eternal youth, so that Tithonus kept on aging and aging.  Eventually a goddess put him out of his misery by turning him into a cricket.  Maybe Nicholas would have taken a leaf from Zeus's book.

As for previous posts in this thread...interesting to think that perhaps at this point Angelique is something of a heroine.  If God is willing to turn his back irrevocably on her, then with Diabolos at least she's got somebody with whom she can deal.  Not very satisfactorily, of course - but it's better than nothing....No, I can't go that way.  She wouldn't be in this fix if she weren't an idiot, and since she's an idiot she can't deal with Diabolos successfully - so it's a dead-end street.

Offline Mysterious Benefactor

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2008, 07:03:30 PM »
since she's an idiot she can't deal with Diabolos successfully

She strikes a successful deal with Diabolos (at least successfully as far as her main aims go: [spoiler]removing her vampire curse and sticking it to Nicholas[/spoiler]) in Ep #628. Nothing idiotic about her there. And even though there's one drawback to it ([spoiler]being sent back to 1796[/spoiler]), no one should expect a devil not to have at least one caveat up their billowy sleeve.  [b003]  After all, they're not angels!  [lghy]

Offline Lydia

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2008, 11:27:21 AM »
It's a reasonable point, but I always have trouble getting past Angelique's original deal with Diabolos - whatever it may have been.  I just can't see allying oneself with a being whose final goal includes the complete misery of the human race.

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2008, 05:49:06 PM »
I don't blame Barnabas for not wanting to forgive Angelique either. She expected him to forget the fact that she killed everyone he loved and give her another chance....yeah right! Despite what she said, I don't believe she meant one word of what she said about being sorry for causing so much pain to all the people he cared about, in the past as well as the present.

I don't know if Nicholas really would have spared Cassandra if she had gotten Barnabas to forgive her. I'm leaning towards no....he'd have to be wondering all the time whether she would try to make another go at getting Barnabas. All that worrying wouldn't have been worth it, since she's already proven she was willing to go behind his back more than once.

It's too bad that Roger has decided not to marry again, but considering his track record, one can't really blame him.

Offline loril54

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2008, 11:26:42 AM »
I am glad that Barnabas didn't forgive her.  I had an impression that people still
stayed up late at Collinwood. At least Barnabas and Julia. When do people ever
sleep.
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Offline Zahir

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Re: Discuss - Ep #0548
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2008, 05:35:24 PM »
I see several issues brought up here.

One is the nature of forgiveness.  While I am indeed a Christian (of the Eastern Orthodox kind, more on that later), methinks the relative value of it is not particularly germane to the story at this point.  Nicholas deliberately gave Angelique an impossible task.  At this point, it would be utterly impossible for Barnabas to forgive her.  Consider for a few moments the enormity of damage she had done in his life, not only to himself but others.  Not even once in 1795 but again in the (then) modern day.  Quite apart from the fact she isn't really showing any repentance, only a personal terror at danger to herself, Barnabas himself is too filled with rage and self-loathing to do anything but aim it in her direction.  At this point in their lives, he is actively trying to stop Angelique/Cassandra from inflicting all kinds of suffering not only upon Barnabas himself, but upon those whom Barnabas  himself victimized--a fact for which he himself feels both intense guilt and seething fury because he (with some justification) blames her for his actions.  After all, she was the one who made him a vampire!  So the guilt fuels his anger.

Years later, after Barnabas had more time with which to ponder events, seen a much more vicious version of Angelique (in parallel time), and frankly come to grips with his own culpability in things like [spoiler]Rachel Drummond's murder and the death of PT Willie Loomis,[/spoiler] then he was able to forgive.  And at that time Angelique did far more than ask for such.  She tried to atone by saving Barnabas and others, by even putting her own neck into a noose without any need save the desire to save the innocent.  Recall that she could have fled at that point.  More, at that point recall that Barnabas understood more about Angelique, about how someone specific had corrupted her--and that someone was out to destroy Barnabas' friends.

I will mention parenthetically that in my Church, forgiveness per se is not so much a path to salvation but a symptom of it.  We believe all enter God's love upon our deaths, but only those whose hearts are open experience it as love.  Those who do not, immersed as they are in what they reject, experience it as a hell.

But now turning to Diablos and Angelique/Miranda.  Somehow I don't think Miranda was all that far-seeing or, more importantly, far-thinking  when she made her pact.  Nor do I think she had any direct contact with Diablos at that time, but rather seemed to be a disciple of Judah Zachary.  For all her cleverness, Miranda/Angelique seemed to me a creature of the moment rather than one with particularly long-range plans.

She and Barnabas were alike in this.  And they were alike in something else.  The unstated but important fact in this episode is that Angelique at this point still has not forgiven Barnabas for rejecting her.  More, he became her lover without intending to keep her, to continue loving her.  Frankly, she had a point.  His sins against her were of a different magnitude than hers, but that does not negate them nor the pain she suffered as a result.  And from a purely chronological point of view, isn't Barnabas to blame for what happened?  Because he used a serving girl in a callous, thoughtless way but then had to live up to consequences beyond his wildest dreams? (Fatal Attraction anyone?)

My point is that forgiveness between those two needed to flow both ways, and until each of them realized that on some level it couldn't happen.  Might as well demand someone breathe molten lava or go to moon by flapping their arms.

JMHO