DARK SHADOWS FORUMS
General Discussions => Current Talk Archive => Current Talk '24 I => Current Talk '06 II => Topic started by: IluvBarnabas on September 22, 2006, 04:55:54 PM
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I don't know about anybody else but when I watched for the first time and learned that [spoiler]instead of living happily ever after, Vicki was killed by Jeb Hawkes, I was mad as hell......Vicki deserved to be happy and to have the writers thrown in that instead she was killed and Peter hanged soon after for killing Jeb was insulting. It seemed like all the trouble Barnabas went to to go back in time and save her and Peter was all for nothing.[/spoiler]
But watching the this segment years later on DVD, I have a theory......[spoiler]when Angelique appears to Peter he doesn't recognize her but in 1796 he certainly did know her....she did appear to testify against Vicki at her witchcraft trial.[/spoiler] This did not make sense him not knowing Angelique...
But how about this.....Parallel Time comes on the heel of the end of the Parallel Time story....what if Vicki had been born and raised in the 18th century instead of the 20th in Parallel time? She meets Peter, they fall in love, about to get married and then [spoiler]Jeb or whoever he was in that period wounded up killing Vicki (accident or murder? The writers never did answer that one)? The Parallel Time Peter Bradford kills Jeb for revenge and it was THAT Peter Bradford who comes to kill Jeb in Regular time.[/spoiler]
Hey I know it's a bit far-fetched but this is Dark Shadows. I like to believe that Peter and Vicki did live their lives out happily and peacefully and lived to be in their 70's and 80's no matter what the writers had us believe.
edited by mod
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Very interesting theory, one more plausible then the original segment. I was actually enjoying the Leviathan story, the parts I understood, until they got to this part of the story. I threw up my arms in disgust because I too thought the Vicki/Peter saga ended on a happy note, for once in DS. ;) It's always fun to think of ways to build on PT.
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Iluvbarnabas, do a google search for Charles Delaware Troll. He's done a wonderfully meticulous "final months" fan fiction that carries on the various plots of DS after it went off the air. It makes wonderful reading and brings the series to a close with most strings tied and happy. Even Vicki. :)
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Iluvbarnabas, do a google search for Charles Delaware Troll. He's done a wonderfully meticulous "final months" fan fiction that carries on the various plots of DS after it went off the air. It makes wonderful reading and brings the series to a close with most strings tied and happy. Even Vicki. :)
Thanks, Nelson. I think I will check it out. :)
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i tried not to let the plot development under discusion here upset me too much because in truth i had already "mourned" the loss of vicki when alexandra left the show a year earlier.
but since the reappearance of peter bradford here is roger davis' final appearance(i believe)on the show i wonder if this was just a way to work out the end of his contract and they weren't really thinking about the implications of it all.
also since the fans were experiencing something of a "disconnect" during this part of the show i wonder if they thought that maybe by re-introducing characters the fans felt connected to was a way to involve the audience again?
at any rate this was probably the strangest and most annoying plot twist ever on the show. >:(
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I completely agree with you, Mscbryk. The first time I saw Vicki's final fate, I was very stunned, and once that wore off, very angry! IMHO, they should have just let us believe that after Barnabas's trip back to 1796 in order to save Vicki from hanging, things ended happily ever after with Peter and Vicki. There was no need to elaborate further on a fate everyone thought had been decided.
[spoiler]The producers should have realized that killing off such a beloved and original character of the show wouldn't be well received.[/spoiler]
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I completely agree with you, Mscbryk. The first time I saw Vicki's final fate, I was very stunned, and once that wore off, very angry! IMHO, they should have just let us believe that after Barnabas's trip back to 1796 in order to save Vicki from hanging, things ended happily ever after with Peter and Vicki. There was no need to elaborate further on a fate everyone thought had been decided.
[spoiler]The producers should have realized that killing off such a beloved and original character of the show wouldn't be well received.[/spoiler]
Isn't that when the ratings started to decline, after the Leviathan Storyline? I didn't know or realize that Roger Davis wasn't on the show anymore. Guess I didn't miss him at all! >:D
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That was an incredibly stupid plot development IMHO, and one that I can very easily ignore.
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What happened was that the ghost was to have been Paul Stoddard, but Dennis Patrick was away working on the movie "Joe" and wasn't available to appear, so they changed it to the version we saw.
They copuld have had his ghost be invisible or cloaked but what they did was really bad writing.
[spoiler]They could have done what they did with Jeremiah's ghost in 1795 and have another actor play it in disguise or cloaked or even invisible[/spoiler]
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They copuld have had his ghost be invisible or cloaked but what they did was really bad writing.
This is very true - and it probably would have been preferable in most DS fans' minds (certainly mine ;)). But we all know how DC seemingly jumped at any opportunity to bring RD back on the show.
(Let's just be thankful that the idea to bring RD back in '70 as KLS' boyfriend (which she mentions in her hoDS diaries) never actually materialized. :))
As for the ratings, it's alway been my understanding that they remained fairly consistently high throughout the 1897 storyline and didn't really decline until a point after Leviathans had begun. However, after Leviathans, though they did begin to rebound, they never again reached the lofty heights they had attained during 1897.
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In most of the books out there by and about DS performers, RD doesn't get a good light.
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What happened was that the ghost was to have been Paul Stoddard, but Dennis Patrick was away working on the movie "Joe" and wasn't available to appear, so they changed it to the version we saw.
They copuld have had his ghost be invisible or cloaked but what they did was really bad writing.
[spoiler]They could have done what they did with Jeremiah's ghost in 1795 and have another actor play it in disguise or cloaked or even invisible[/spoiler]
Substituting an actor for a stand-in isn't uncommon so they could have come up with something better, as your spoiler indicated. I heard that they were planning to bring back Alexandra Moltke and her character Vicki. Since she refused to play the dunce again, they wanted to write her out completely. I thought they had so this attempt was lame, especially bringing back Peter's ghost. I think they should have let AM play a bad girl!! Everyone else did at least once.
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at any rate this was probably the strangest and most annoying plot twist ever on the show. >:(
I think everyone hates this scene, on all the lists I'm on everyone hates it. It bugs me no end since after seeing that it's hard to even watch Vicki in the earlier storylines without remembering that this is her ultimate fate. Though we don't like any of the RD characters, she deserved her happily ever after and they deprived her of that. It sucks big time IMO. :'(
Alondra
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With new DS stories being told with Big Finish audios I 'm hoping they do a special story to straighten out Vicky and Peter's fate . That would require Alexandra Moltke , Roger Davis and Chris Pennock to all return to do it right , although they could use new actors in some parts .
They also could just bring Vicky back . Say , like this :
While taking a late night walk on the beach , Maggie and Quentin ( or whoever ) find Vicky washed up on the shores of the beach below Widow's Hill ,miraculously alive . Vicky could have been brought forward in time when Jeb pushed her off the cliff. The story could go on from there , with no need to immediately involve Peter or Jeb , although they could be brought on later. At the very least Vicky could get closure with Peter thru a seance , with Peter speaking thru another character.
I would love something like this to happen .
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I would love something like this to happen.
Indeed! And it would be wonderful if Alexandra would consent to do it.
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Not sure I want to become embroiled in a controversy (and I'm going out of town so I won't be able to get too embroiled), but I never watched DS looking for happy endings.
While I was shocked at Vicki's fate, I wouldn't presume to dictate what I think should happen on a TV show or in a novel I read. Life is full of tragedies, and I thought this segment reflected that.
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We can solve that - Vicki can be alive, but she can never be with Peter. Frankly, that works even better for me. Happiness for fans of Vicki, tragedy for Vicki herself. ;) Any potential controversy easily averted. :D
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Throw in resolving her parentage and I'll even buy one.
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Throw in resolving her parentage and I'll even buy one.
For a partial answer to that ( even though Vicky herself isn't in it ) check out the Return to Colliwood cd play :)
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Currently rewatching boxset 18, and a thought struck me.
[spoiler]Barnabas was kidnapped by the Leviathans in 1796. This could be just immediately after Jeb is killed by Peter Bradford (if I am remembering the story correctly). Their leader's physical body was dead and they sensed Barnabas' moving about in the time stream, so they took advantage of both his abilities and the moment.[/spoiler]
Not in ANY WAY trying to justify this plot development, but it suddenly seemed to make a little more sense to me.
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That does make sense , except during that time Vicky would still be locked in jail . I suppose that since events are playing out differently when Barnabas and Kitty went back to 1796 Vicky could have been liberated somehow . I hope that someday an official audio or book straightens out this mess !
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Until Peter shows up with the noose, I thought Jeb was "born" recently. We were supposed to I guess. Are they saying Jeb, looking like adult Jeb with the same name, goes through all this, periodically through history, accellerated growth and trying to take over the world, only for something to go wrong? Maybe... what we saw was only the second time? I suppose he got gaoled for his similar Leviathan activities, so not his fault, and they let him try again? Why then does the world seem so new to him in 1969?
Same as with Eve I suppose, rebirth is a hard process and much gets lost. Sort of what happened with Julia when she hit 1840. Crossing these barriers take bits of you away.
This must have been Jeb's second try, only. If he betrayed them this time, he has an inclination for it, and wouldn't be given repeated shots at The Plan.
It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf. It makes me wonder after seeing Barnabas's not-so-gradual or understandable process of reformation, in 1968. I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts". Before, I always thought it was cool that they questioned the rightness of having the law "redeem" people, but over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.
Arashi... I think they must have had that in mind, what you said. It was just poorly explained. By them, not you.
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It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf.
Don't even get me started on THAT again! ::)
I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts".
Interesting theory. :D
over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.
And if/when it happens that quickly, it simply does not work. There's suspending disbelief - and then there's out and out insane plot twists that the audience would be insane themselves to swallow. [sad3]
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Not sure I want to become embroiled in a controversy (and I'm going out of town so I won't be able to get too embroiled), but I never watched DS looking for happy endings.
While I was shocked at Vicki's fate, I wouldn't presume to dictate what I think should happen on a TV show or in a novel I read. Life is full of tragedies, and I thought this segment reflected that.
I have nothing against unhappy and tragic endings, but I think those are better suited for more realistic stories. DS definitely doesn't fall under the catergory of realism.
And as for dictating what one thinks should happen in a TV show or a novel.....well, isn't that what a forum is for? To offer an opinion on what one likes or didn't like about a TV show or movie or what one wishes had happened on there or didn't happen on there? It's not like we can change the outcome of the show (however much one may wish it). I for one have no qualms about expressing my dismay over a certain plot twist.
I still say the writers (or maybe more so DC) were stupid to change Vicki's fate from a happy one to a sad and undeserved one. Again I say leave the unhappy endings for more realistic fare like any of the Law and Order and CSI shows.
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It disturbs me that even with Jeb, they seem to have been trying to make him genuinely "reformed" and virtuous, just because he suddenly turns over a new leaf. It makes me wonder after seeing Barnabas's not-so-gradual or understandable process of reformation, in 1968. I wonder if the writers were harboring any murderers in their basements, or something, or had "pasts". Before, I always thought it was cool that they questioned the rightness of having the law "redeem" people, but over the years there are just too many examples on DS of reprehensible people waking up one day whistling and redeemed.
That was a hard plot point to come across and I still don't buy it. We're suddenly supposed to like Jeb just because he decided not to be the Thing anymore? After murdering Paul Stoddard, Sheriff Davenport, and Inspector Guthrie (was that his name?) and framing Philip Todd for the murders, trying to kill both Maggie and Quentin, trying to get nearly everyone under the sun to murder Julia, and turning Barnabas back into a vampire again which threatens the existence of everyone around him... it's so nice of everyone to kind of forget all that for the sake of his love for Carolyn /sarcasm.
Yeah the Shadow was incredibly hokey, but I loved that scene where he walks into the carriage house and Angelique is sitting at the table waiting for him. >:D
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That was a hard plot point to come across and I still don't buy it. We're suddenly supposed to like Jeb just because he decided not to be the Thing anymore? After murdering Paul Stoddard, Sheriff Davenport, and Inspector Guthrie (was that his name?) and framing Philip Todd for the murders, trying to kill both Maggie and Quentin, trying to get nearly everyone under the sun to murder Julia, and turning Barnabas back into a vampire again which threatens the existence of everyone around him... it's so nice of everyone to kind of forget all that for the sake of his love for Carolyn /sarcasm.
Thank you, arashi! I couldn't have said it better myself. A good part of the DS audience could easily accept that certain characters could have been believably transformed from evildoers to at least something resembling something otherwise with very little suspension of disbelief because a stable foundation for it was developed, usually over a period of time long enough for it to take (what passes on DS for ;)) logical root and shape - BUT no amount of suspension of disbelief could ever reform Jeb as quickly as the audience is expected to swallow his supposed turn.
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You know, after all this stuiff about Jeb, looking back, I'm starting to feel a soft spot for Blair, because after all, love redeems all, and Blair had a soft spot for Maggie, or a hard one, or whatever. (I'm writing their marriage vows.) Poor old misunderstood Nickie, always meaning well, and the Devil leads all sorts of good people astray. Look, there he is on TV, holding Maggie's hand... oh I can't help it!!! Nicholas Blair, what a loveable galloot!! Put 'er there, Nick! You can stay in the guest room! Heck, take my room!